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From science to buddhism. Now what?
Hello all, glad to have found this site.
"Seeker," is actually a good description of where I'm at.
I've always had a fascination with science, cosmology and theoretical physics. It is a kind of fun brain-candy for me (yes, I'm a bit of a geek!). Without going into too much detail (which, to be honest, I understand in lay terms - and not completely), made me curious about eastern religions because some of the leading scientific theories about the nature of reality/the universe/quantum physics/string theory/etc. sounded familiar. I've never really believed in the man with a long white beard version of God, and something about Buddhism got my interest. I talked to a few people, read a bit on the Internet, went to a sanga meeting (would you call that a service?), and started breathing meditation 3 weeks ago.
Something about the basics just ring true to be, and I think I'd like to go further. I feel a bit strange calling myself a Buddhist, because I was not raised with religion and have never been religious, but that is what I am. I'd like to go further with it. I really know very little, and I'm kind of wondering what direction to go in. Like most people where I live, I did not know there were so many flavors of Buddhism. Which is what? I feel like I have to make a choice on which direction to move in. I think I’m more partial to a flavor where I could learn from a teacher of some sort.
Reading about it is great, but I'd also like some human interaction. We are, after all, social animals.
Also have a few questions. I'm still a bit leery of the concept of re-birth. If you are re-incarnated, but you don't carry your memory or your personality at the time of death, what is exactly is re-incarnating? Also confused about the six realms of existence (Hell worlds, the realm of the hungry ghosts, the animal world, the human realm, the realm of the jealous gods, the heavens). Is that metaphorical (with the exception of the animal world and the human realm, which I can see) or are we talking about actual places?
Thank you!
"Seeker," is actually a good description of where I'm at.
I've always had a fascination with science, cosmology and theoretical physics. It is a kind of fun brain-candy for me (yes, I'm a bit of a geek!). Without going into too much detail (which, to be honest, I understand in lay terms - and not completely), made me curious about eastern religions because some of the leading scientific theories about the nature of reality/the universe/quantum physics/string theory/etc. sounded familiar. I've never really believed in the man with a long white beard version of God, and something about Buddhism got my interest. I talked to a few people, read a bit on the Internet, went to a sanga meeting (would you call that a service?), and started breathing meditation 3 weeks ago.
Something about the basics just ring true to be, and I think I'd like to go further. I feel a bit strange calling myself a Buddhist, because I was not raised with religion and have never been religious, but that is what I am. I'd like to go further with it. I really know very little, and I'm kind of wondering what direction to go in. Like most people where I live, I did not know there were so many flavors of Buddhism. Which is what? I feel like I have to make a choice on which direction to move in. I think I’m more partial to a flavor where I could learn from a teacher of some sort.
Reading about it is great, but I'd also like some human interaction. We are, after all, social animals.
Also have a few questions. I'm still a bit leery of the concept of re-birth. If you are re-incarnated, but you don't carry your memory or your personality at the time of death, what is exactly is re-incarnating? Also confused about the six realms of existence (Hell worlds, the realm of the hungry ghosts, the animal world, the human realm, the realm of the jealous gods, the heavens). Is that metaphorical (with the exception of the animal world and the human realm, which I can see) or are we talking about actual places?
Thank you!
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Comments
Must you see things for them to exist?
We cannot remember events when we are still a baby, naturally we cannot possible remember events in our past lives. But we do carry some of the traits from the past, some of us are by nature very detail, some very musical inclined, some very sporty, some very aggrogant, some very humble and etc. We are also the result of the karmic actions perform in past lives, that is why, some of us born in rich family, some poor, some tall, some short, some with able body and some not.
Yes. There are many levels of heaven, many levels of hell too, and many other worlds and many galaxies which we cannot see with our naked eyes. It is said that when someone reaches an advance stage in Meditation, he has the ability to see all for himself. It is just like there are many unknown species we are not aware of in the deep wide ocean. Wisdom is from within, not from the external.
cheers,
Re-birth and re-incarnation are different things. Although specific beliefs vary, I think most Buddhists do see some sort of distinction (I do not know for certain, though). For me, physical re-birth can be just another way of saying things change but their matter doesn't just vanish. When I die, my atoms continue on in different forms - but "I" am gone. Other types of rebirth for me include the ideas that our karma lives on, even after we die. What we did continues to affect things. All once has to due is look to history to see this. What would the world be like today had Alexander the Great not lived? Of course, even the most seemingly unimportant people produce great effects on others. Think about the movie "It's a Wonderful Life." Finally, I also see rebirth as a metaphor for change in this life - both physical and mentally. Who I am today, is not who I was yesterday. Every experience changes me.
As for the six realms of existence, I don't put much weight into them. I believe they are just carry overs from pre-Buddhist belief systems. They might have some metaphorical value for some, but I don't believe they exist. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter. It would not change how I live my life, affect my happiness, etc.
Since in truth there is no self, we are constantly experiencing death and rebirth from moment to moment, constantly recycling through the six realms of existence, sort of like the frames in a movie that when viewed seem to be one. So you don't necessarily have to limit death and rebirth to the death of the physical body.
Palzang
P.S. That doesn't mean that you can't be reborn as an ant, BTW.
Welcome to the site.
This is one of the reasons why vicikiccha (doubt) is listed as one of the five hinderances on the Path to Awakening.
Vicikiccha (doubt) is a rootlet of avijja (not-knowing). It is also known as one of the seven anusaya (obsessions/underlying tendencies which are: sensual passion, resistance, views, uncertainty, conceit, passion for becoming, and ignorance).
Because one does not 'see' something clearly they blind themselves to that reality. That is why avijja is the direct cause for all of our suffering. We build our 'Self' on the foundation of these anusaya. How can you believe anything beyond what you see, hear, smell, taste, and touch when your personality is constructed upon doubt and the limits of the five senses? Most people do not know, or understand, that 'mind' in Buddhism is the sixth sense. The 'mind' of a being can do much more than merely 'think'. For example, can you say that a microbe doesn't exist because you cannot see it? You might reply that you can, with the aide of a microbe-seeing tool called a microscope...
Well, the Buddha gave us a mind-seeing tool called Jhana (meditative absorption). Through various meditation techniques, such as mindfulness of breathing, a person can attain a state of one-pointed mindful-awareness. In this state of concentrated awareness you can 'see' and experience what you normally could not. This can include 'past lives'. That is one of the reasons why meditation is so often stressed in the Suttas, commentaries, and other related materials (besides of course the temporary subduing the five hindrances, concentration, calm, etc.).
When you actually experience these things for yourself you cultivate the conditions for removing doubt, and consequently, coming one step closer to Nibbana - the Unconditioned.
As for rebirth, there is nothing that is 'reincarnated' per se. At death, the last moment of consciousness of the previous life conditions the first moment of consciousness of the present birth. It is a perpetual stream of consciousness, a series of ever continuing thought-moments conditioned by tahna (craving) due to avijja (ignorance)...
But, you do not have to concern yourself with such notions at the beginning. What is more important than understand the concept and mechanisms of rebirth is how you live your life. Buddhism's main selling point is that it is practical. Of course you can get hung up on rebirth, kamma, preta-realms, etc. if you want, but you don't have to. You can simply live skillfully by following the Noble Eightfold Path, as well as observing the five precepts:
1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.
5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.
No matter who you are this way of life leads to happiness, wisdom, and peace.
I hope that you find this helpful.
Jason
Rejoice.
- Dhana Sutta: AN VII.6
All,
I doubt that many of you will care where I personally stand on this issue, but I feel that sharing my view cannot hurt so...
There are times when I do believe strongly in the complete workings of kamma and rebirth (punabbhava), but I will be honest and say that I still have a great deal of doubt (vicikiccha) about rebirth. Without the actual experience of 'seeing' my 'past lives' through meditation I am taking it on faith (saddha) that the Buddha's teachings were true in this respect. There is nothing more I can do at this point to further strengthen my convictions besides having a deeper insight due to my meditation practice.
Maybe one day...
Jason
I don’t need to see something to believe in it. In fact some part of me knows that whatever I see is processed through the prejudices of my experience, leading me to a mental attempt to categorize it as something familiar. Sometimes I can feel a truth. Still, I am relying on some kind of mental compass. In spiritual matters the pitfall is my desire to believe; this can cloud my vision. Because I do have an attachment to my sense of self, I want very much to believe I will not wink out of existence when I die. So the idea of re-birth, re-incarnation, or afterlife is EXTREEMLY attractive to me. This contradicts with my sense of reason. I think sometimes people can suspend their reason in order to make a leap of faith for the sake of comfort. Historically, this has not been very effective for me.
As for the concept of re-birth/reincarnation, I think I will put on the shelf for now. Maybe it will become clearer later. I guess right now it isn’t important if the 6 realms are real or metaphorical. There was a raging scientific debate the nature of light, specifically if it was a wave or a particle. The true genius of Albert Einstein was that he suggested that is was both. Talk about paradoxes!
Meditation is a challenge for me, as I imagine it is for anyone in the beginning. The first time I practiced it I came out of it quite bewildered how difficult it was to focus on simple breathing without forcing my concentration. I came out of the experience with an insight on just how thirsty my mind is for continuous mental activity, along with a dim understanding that this has a relation to my personal suffering. I also questioned myself if I was doing it “right,” although that is passing. I’m still very new at it, but even in this early stage, I have been able to successfully “reset” my emotional state. I’m just going to stay with it and see where it goes. Hopefully, the restless and discomfort will pass.
Elohim, I need a few days to read and re-read what you wrote. Like me, it is rather dense. But I instinctively like it! Your hopes are realized, it is very helpful. I sincerely thank you. I am still pondering the eightfold path’s meaning. 4 of the 5 precepts I believe in and attempt (with varying degrees of success) to follow. Lust is problematic for me, even though I agree with it in principle. There is something very base with sexual feelings that tend to circumvent reason. But on the subject of intoxicants/drugs I do believe some (definitely not all) can be used with positive effects. Some drugs are too addictive but nature, but others I have taken I got something from. There is always some kind of trade off when altering consciousness, but unless I’m completely deluding myself, I feel like I gained some kind of personal insight after the effect was over. I think the carelessness can (by some people) be compensated for by responsible use. As ever, I could be wrong.
Anyway, it is late. Thank you all again.
-Ken
I am very happy that you found something helpful.
First of all, you show that you have great discernment just by realizing that you have the desire to believe in an afterlife. Just that desire is enough to propel existence on and on. Kamma is any volitional action of body, speech, and mind. Tahna (craving) for becoming, the 'will to live' as we call it, is so strong that it carries this process of volitional action to future existences by conditioning birth via the momentum of the 'rebirth consciousness'. I know that this all sounds very difficult to understand, but it is quite simple. Desire is the fuel. Desire propels, pushes, conditions a new birth after death by sending the subtle consciousness forward to attach to a new body. (That's the basic theory anyway.)
As for putting it on the shelf, that is fine. You do not need a belief of rebirth to be a 'Buddhist' or practice Buddhism. It is important in that it shows the importance of practice and why we need to develop our minds with joy, compassion, loving-kindness, equanimity, and wisdom, but you can still follow the Path without it. It is basically a motivation factor for me, I should do this because it has benefits seen in the here and now, and/or possibly, in my next birth...
Ah meditation, meditation, where to begin? I should say that you are correct in your observation, meditation is very difficult at the beginning. The best advice I can give to you is try to develop the three qualities of patience, effort, and consistency. I think it is safe to say that we have all experienced the same challenges in our own practice. The key is to stick to one method that you like, or are most comfortable with and practice it as consistently as possible. If you are able to do it eveyday, then do it everyday; if you can do it twice a week, then do it twice a week. Whatever the amount you can manage, the more you do it the easier it will become and the more you will get out of it. Just have patience. Sometimes it will be good while other times it will be bad, but don't get frustrated or give up. Keep at it. You were at least very perceptive in noticing the cause for this trouble, "I came out of the experience with an insight on just how thirsty my mind is for continuous mental activity..." That, believe it or not, is a good start. Meditation is one of those things in Buddhism that cannot be 'realized' or 'understood', it simply must be 'done'. Don't try to do anything special and don't expect any results, just sit and watch your breath. Be fully with it while it comes in, and be fully with it while it goes out. Now it might takes months or even years to develop your meditation to the point of 'concentration', but you will benefit from it greatly. Even just the relaxation and calmness of sitting can help ease the mind and body.
Raga (lust) is the strongest of all desires. Lust for form, feelings, perceptions, becoming... lust is the king of all the desires. First off, the fourth precept does not say, "Refrain from having sex". It says instead, "Refrain from sexual misconduct." What this means is that you should not commit adultery, child molestation, incest, rape, sexual abuse in any form, and sexual harassment, etc. This does not include consensual sexual activity by a committed couple, which is fine. The main criteria for this precept is to, "above all, do no harm to others or to oneself". We can get into raga (lust) in more detail later, but for now just try to notice when your lust for something dictates your actions i.e. for food, for sex, for entertainment, for visual stimulation, for hearing stimulations, for comfort, etc.
The fifth precept is for your protection, as well as others. When you take drugs you have a greater chance of making poorer decisions. Even if you may have had an 'insightful experience' with a certain drug, it was an impermanent experience. The feeling, the pleasure, the insight disappears after time. It basically covers up the symptoms for a limited time, but it does not cure the diseases of the mind. Now, nobody will force you to stop using drugs and alcohol, it is only a training that is suggested for your benefit, however, in time you may see that the dangers and harm outweigh any positive aspects of such indulgences. I for one have had many such experiences. I used drugs and alcohol quite regularly at one point in my life. It took me a number of years for me to see that I was only doing myself harm in the long-run. I had simply just not paid close enough attention. If you continue to use drugs and alcohol just pay close attention to how you feel, how you think, how you act, and compare that with how you are normally. Also, pay attention to the length of each experience, the quality, the outcome, etc. (Also, see this for the perspective of a well respected Buddhist monk: 'Ecstasy Is Not the Goal')
I will certainly not judge you because you use any substances, but I will try to point you in the right direction: observing the quality and stability of your mental states. As the Buddha is quoted as saying:
"Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow."
- Dhp I: Yamakavagga
Jason
My name is Jerbear and a semi regular to regular around here. I can totally relate to getting into Buddhism after reading things about it relating to science. One thing that I have done though is still keep an agnostic attitude toward Buddhism. There is a lot of stories and that is all they might be. They might be true. A very good book is "Buddhism Without Beliefs" by Stephen Batchelor. You can order it on amazon.com.
As for attending a sangha, did you enjoy the first one you went to? Why not go a few more times until you find out if it fits you or not? I go to a Zen temple, and it's because the teacher is so cool and he and I click. He highly encourages us to question him and sometimes I'm sure he's sorry he said that to me.
Keep meditating. I do so for 20 minutes a day 5-6 days a week. It gives me a sense of peace, and I know it's helping. Not sure how yet, but I'll know when the time comes.
Again, welcome to the forum. We're glad to have you.
http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/1-57062-519-0.cfm
That is a very good book. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
-bf