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The dimension is nowhere else. All inside one's wisdom of mind. There are three main checkpoints in Vipassana as described in many Vipassana books, with which one can check whether he is improving or not.
1. see the happen and cease of the sensations
2. After seeing countless number of these events, happening and ceasing within a split second, one will come to loathe them (body) because he sees the three characteristics very clearly and there is nothing to cling to the body or enjoy those events.
3. Then, all of a sudden, from seeing those countless events, one's mind will be into a dimension where those events can no longer be found. There is nothing.
There is no permanence or impermanence because nothing is created, hence nothing is destroyed.
There is no suffering because there is no existence of 'body'
There is no self at all.
However, this is a temporary glance to the dimension. Mind still exists which is observing nothingness. At this stage, one will still have greed and anger. But, he will no longer break the precepts from this life on. So, the door of hell closes for him forever. If he continues his path to enlightenment, the most he will pass through is 7 lives.
Are you inferring that you've attained stream-entry?
I don't want to say that I have. This is absolutely not my purpose here. Besides, my purpose is not to argue and tell everyone to change their belief and way of practice. From the discussions I have made, may they get the core points I am stressing. May they try out themselves and accept with their own wisdom.
Even if only one out of 1000 readers, gets it, it is very invaluable.
The coming-together of these factors is called the stream because it leads inevitably to two things, just as the current of a tributary will lead inevitably to a major river and then to the sea. In the immediate present, the stream leads directly to the arising of the Dhamma eye, the vision that actually constitutes this first awakening. Over time, the stream ensures that — in no more than seven lifetimes — one will be totally Unbound.
I got that. Who is the one who doesn't come back? You said there was no self, so who doesn't come back? I'm not asking this to be rude i'm trying to make you think. I mean no offense, but you seem quite sure of yourself. Confidence is good, but I get the vibe from you that you think you know more than others. Again, no offense, and if you take offense pretend I didn't say it. Let me say it like this though. Even if you are very wise, looking at others as unwise or less wise is pointless and hinders your progress. Look at everyone as a buddha. You can learn something from everything. Would you rather learn something or think that the person saying something is less wise than you?
I got that. Who is the one who doesn't come back? You said there was no self, so who doesn't come back? I'm not asking this to be rude i'm trying to make you think. I mean no offense, but you seem quite sure of yourself. Confidence is good, but I get the vibe from you that you think you know more than others. Again, no offense, and if you take offense pretend I didn't say it. Let me say it like this though. Even if you are very wise, looking at others as unwise or less wise is pointless and hinders your progress. Look at everyone as a buddha. You can learn something from everything. Would you rather learn something or think that the person saying something is less wise than you?
Anyways, metta. Good luck on your journey.
It's nice that you have voiced out what you think about me. I don't take it as a negative for me. Thanks for the advice.
But, I think you have misunderstood me like Alfonso. I never think anyone else is less wise than me. Not at all. Anyone can become enlightened within a night.
If I have such an attitude, do you think I would come this far on the path?
I would be stuck at the stage of seeing only happening events, because of self-pride and ignorance.
Similarly, if I am a type of person who speaks more than listens, do you think I would come to understand such a complex philosophy of Vipassana? For me to understand, I listened to many and tried a number of ways. On the way during the practices, I never talked to any others about the progress, nor did I convince them to follow what I am doing. Because I am not sure what I am following is actually the truth or not. Only when I did find out the truth by wisdom, it naturally fills inside my heart with enormous compassion for other beings to see the truth as I have seen or more than I have seen. That's my purpose here.
I am repetitively stressing on a point that please don't judge by knowledge or influence of the surroundings and traditions. Judge by own wisdom. (Again, when I say the word 'wisdom', please don't think that I am using big words and belittle others). Surroundings may change, knowledge may be proved wrong, but wisdom stays inside one.
I have no intention to hurt another's feelings or belief but If I have done so, I do apologize.
But, if I am very sure that something is not right, I would rather not remain quiet. I would point it out.
You shouldn't get a headache and I warn against pills, but otherwise you sound like you are determined and that is what you really need. The intellect is necessary to create an idea of nirvana in your mind, but that is like an image rather than the real thing; keep at it and your mind will eventually free itself from the intellectual thoughts.
I don't know why you argue with peaceful buddhist... just check the first page the discussion we had.
I'm not trying to argue, I haven't participated in most of this. I've just chimed in to validate what was inferred. As you may know from other threads of mine, I'm curious to meet people of spiritual advancement.
@ filosophia and really my openning post:
Yeah, I don't get headaches anymore. I haven't taken pills since, but had you experienced what I experienced (and I've done my fair share of drugs before, this was no 'tripping out', trance or any other unnatural phenomena) you'd be interested in meditating on Tramadol too. I will again. In fact I've got three sessions worth.
I actually had a theory that night, because I'd been awake for an entire 20 or so hours on Trams plus ass loads of coffee the combined effects were something like a stimulant from the Trams and the coffee which kept me from sleeping but my body and mind outside the pill was slipping in and out of dreaming while meditating without actually losing full consciousness. So I could find a sweet spot right at the barrier between sleeping and wakefulness. Mixed with the very, very good feelings and metta from the Trams with a bit of the brain-deadness from having been awake for 20 or so hours on Trams and coffee and voila! Zero distracting thoughts, pure love and compassion, plus the sweet spot of meditation. Perhaps that night I achieved a deep jhana. And I'll be testing it again soon.
In my opinion, whether self exists or not, depends on the dimension. In the dimension where we are in, where we are engaging in daily activities, self undoubtedly exists. Without self, this dimension cannot exist. In the dimension which is the ultimate goal of Vipassana, self undoubtedly does not exist.
Doesn't it depend upon the definition of self? If you believe that self is a physical entity, then yes, from the perspective of the third dimension that we physically reside in, self would only exist in the third dimension. Or am I totally off on this one?
going after any kind of feeling is a time wasting activity because feelings are ultimately empty as they come and go just like everything else.
Aren't feelings the by-products of thoughts? So if someone is merely interested in obtaining a feeling, you can just choose to think of the right thoughts, and wala, no?
Like if I want to feel angry, I can just think of things in my life that can make me angry. If I choose to feel happiness, I can choose to think of the things in my life I'm grateful for. Is it not so simple?
Aren't feelings the by-products of thoughts? So if someone is merely interested in obtaining a feeling, you can just choose to think of the right thoughts, and wala, no?
Like if I want to feel angry, I can just think of things in my life that can make me angry. If I choose to feel happiness, I can choose to think of the things in my life I'm grateful for. Is it not so simple?
He's referring to "feelings" as in out of the ordinary feelings of bliss or loss of ego or the like. Really good feelings that are completely different from normal feelings. You can't get these by pursuing them.
There shouldn't be any balance between sleeping and waking during meditation. You should be alert and awake.
Perhaps.
But I'm also told that meditation is a practise that can't be taught entirely by text. I've taught myself nearly everything I know through self-analysis and experimentation. I'm very open to criticisms but at the same time I do hear the same things over and over, and while I'd be more prone to going through the motions from all the things I've read, I'm nearly certain that without Trams I've flirted with the second jhana. But like I said, that was text, who the hell knows? I won't be that arrogant, but it is certainly my own experimentation and interpretation that has gotten me anywhere. When I do breathing meditation it only quiets my mind less than a third of the way or so it takes for me to get to what has ever convinced me of a possible jhana. To reach that state requires absolute absence of 99% of thoughts, and breathing meditation, even deeply, at least for me, or any of the other typical things never work since for me, on a subtle level I'm still thinking "concentrate", "yeah", "hey, still concentrating". Obviously not verbally, not linguistically, but subtly I am. I know on those Trams I wasn't in my right mind but either I was in a very convincing trance to have experienced those jhanas I typically experience and then went two or three times deeper to have forgotten my own existance for several minutes at a time as I'd said, or I truly had a spiritual breakthrough. Had, mind you, had.
Thank valois . I read about it. I wouldn't bother with it. I have done plenty of opiates.There is good reason why that stuff gets people hooked, and it doesn't have much to do with meditation. Take it easy.-P
All I care about is if I achieved jhana meditation then I'm
A. doing something correctly, and
B. maybe if I became a monastic and enlightenment was a real potential, I could achieve it maybe.
What kind of experience should one expect when they encounter jhana?
there are multiple jhanas. The first is characterized by pleasure and joy.
valois- why is enlightenment only a real possibility if you enter the monastic life? Buddhist scriptures themselves speak of enlightened lay people. I'm not gonna say entering the monastic life doesn't make it easier, as there aren't many opportunities for attachment, but it's certainly possible without, you just have a couple more challenges, but if you overcome it's the same either way.
I know there's different jhanas. I understand there to be four, I've seen this further split into eight and even nine. I use the term jhana meditation instead of saying something like 'the four jhanas' because I don't really know the difference and I was experimenting to see if someone might demonstrate it, so thank you. If there is a difference could you please enlighten me.
Regarding lay people becoming enlightened, I know it's theoretically possible but in my opinion very unlikely especially with all the distraction of the modern media age.
I know there's different jhanas. I understand there to be four, I've seen this further split into eight and even nine. I use the term jhana meditation instead of saying something like 'the four jhanas' because I don't really know the difference and I was experimenting to see if someone might demonstrate it, so thank you. If there is a difference could you please enlighten me.
Regarding lay people becoming enlightened, I know it's theoretically possible but in my opinion very unlikely especially with all the distraction of the modern media age.
I'm not sure what each of the jhana's are like, I just know the first one is pleasure and joy. I'm sure a google search would show you, though.
Regarding lay people becoming enlightened, I know it's theoretically possible but in my opinion very unlikely especially with all the distraction of the modern media age.
Even if we weren't in the Information Age, I believe it's not likely that everyone would become enlightened. However, I believe that you're right in that people were more enlightened back in the days. If one took the time to interpret the level of enlightenment in ancient artifacts such as the hieroglyphics in the pyramids in Egypt, it's astonishing.
We are programmed in today's age, and rarely think for ourselves. Sometimes I laugh at how coincidental it is that they call it a radio or television program. Interesting choice of words.
I'm nearly certain that without Trams I've flirted with the second jhana. But like I said, that was text, who the hell knows?
More importantly, who the hell cares?
Just sit.
And maybe don't flaunt the pain killers you abuse to pursue your gaining idea. :orange:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2010
I have edited the thread, because I felt the liberal discussion by some, on how 'mighty fine' it is to take drugs is a little too close to a recommendation, in my personal view.
The decision was mine, but I simply cannot conclude that there is anything worthwhile or constructive to be gained in advocating their use.
particularly if it is for purely recreational purposes, and we all know what The Precepts say about that.
It borders on consent to leave the comments, I am told, so I took the safe bet and edited.
Comments
you've been in another dimension? How does one enter another dimension, and how do you know you're there when you get there? And what is it like?
1. see the happen and cease of the sensations
2. After seeing countless number of these events, happening and ceasing within a split second, one will come to loathe them (body) because he sees the three characteristics very clearly and there is nothing to cling to the body or enjoy those events.
3. Then, all of a sudden, from seeing those countless events, one's mind will be into a dimension where those events can no longer be found. There is nothing.
There is no permanence or impermanence because nothing is created, hence nothing is destroyed.
There is no suffering because there is no existence of 'body'
There is no self at all.
However, this is a temporary glance to the dimension. Mind still exists which is observing nothingness. At this stage, one will still have greed and anger. But, he will no longer break the precepts from this life on. So, the door of hell closes for him forever. If he continues his path to enlightenment, the most he will pass through is 7 lives.
I don't want to say that I have. This is absolutely not my purpose here. Besides, my purpose is not to argue and tell everyone to change their belief and way of practice. From the discussions I have made, may they get the core points I am stressing. May they try out themselves and accept with their own wisdom.
Even if only one out of 1000 readers, gets it, it is very invaluable.
The coming-together of these factors is called the stream because it leads inevitably to two things, just as the current of a tributary will lead inevitably to a major river and then to the sea. In the immediate present, the stream leads directly to the arising of the Dhamma eye, the vision that actually constitutes this first awakening. Over time, the stream ensures that — in no more than seven lifetimes — one will be totally Unbound.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html
Anyways, metta. Good luck on your journey.
It's nice that you have voiced out what you think about me. I don't take it as a negative for me. Thanks for the advice.
But, I think you have misunderstood me like Alfonso. I never think anyone else is less wise than me. Not at all. Anyone can become enlightened within a night.
If I have such an attitude, do you think I would come this far on the path?
I would be stuck at the stage of seeing only happening events, because of self-pride and ignorance.
Similarly, if I am a type of person who speaks more than listens, do you think I would come to understand such a complex philosophy of Vipassana? For me to understand, I listened to many and tried a number of ways. On the way during the practices, I never talked to any others about the progress, nor did I convince them to follow what I am doing. Because I am not sure what I am following is actually the truth or not. Only when I did find out the truth by wisdom, it naturally fills inside my heart with enormous compassion for other beings to see the truth as I have seen or more than I have seen. That's my purpose here.
I am repetitively stressing on a point that please don't judge by knowledge or influence of the surroundings and traditions. Judge by own wisdom. (Again, when I say the word 'wisdom', please don't think that I am using big words and belittle others). Surroundings may change, knowledge may be proved wrong, but wisdom stays inside one.
I have no intention to hurt another's feelings or belief but If I have done so, I do apologize.
But, if I am very sure that something is not right, I would rather not remain quiet. I would point it out.
I'm not trying to argue, I haven't participated in most of this. I've just chimed in to validate what was inferred. As you may know from other threads of mine, I'm curious to meet people of spiritual advancement.
@ filosophia and really my openning post:
Yeah, I don't get headaches anymore. I haven't taken pills since, but had you experienced what I experienced (and I've done my fair share of drugs before, this was no 'tripping out', trance or any other unnatural phenomena) you'd be interested in meditating on Tramadol too. I will again. In fact I've got three sessions worth.
I actually had a theory that night, because I'd been awake for an entire 20 or so hours on Trams plus ass loads of coffee the combined effects were something like a stimulant from the Trams and the coffee which kept me from sleeping but my body and mind outside the pill was slipping in and out of dreaming while meditating without actually losing full consciousness. So I could find a sweet spot right at the barrier between sleeping and wakefulness. Mixed with the very, very good feelings and metta from the Trams with a bit of the brain-deadness from having been awake for 20 or so hours on Trams and coffee and voila! Zero distracting thoughts, pure love and compassion, plus the sweet spot of meditation. Perhaps that night I achieved a deep jhana. And I'll be testing it again soon.
Doesn't it depend upon the definition of self? If you believe that self is a physical entity, then yes, from the perspective of the third dimension that we physically reside in, self would only exist in the third dimension. Or am I totally off on this one?
Aren't feelings the by-products of thoughts? So if someone is merely interested in obtaining a feeling, you can just choose to think of the right thoughts, and wala, no?
Like if I want to feel angry, I can just think of things in my life that can make me angry. If I choose to feel happiness, I can choose to think of the things in my life I'm grateful for. Is it not so simple?
He's referring to "feelings" as in out of the ordinary feelings of bliss or loss of ego or the like. Really good feelings that are completely different from normal feelings. You can't get these by pursuing them.
Perhaps.
But I'm also told that meditation is a practise that can't be taught entirely by text. I've taught myself nearly everything I know through self-analysis and experimentation. I'm very open to criticisms but at the same time I do hear the same things over and over, and while I'd be more prone to going through the motions from all the things I've read, I'm nearly certain that without Trams I've flirted with the second jhana. But like I said, that was text, who the hell knows? I won't be that arrogant, but it is certainly my own experimentation and interpretation that has gotten me anywhere. When I do breathing meditation it only quiets my mind less than a third of the way or so it takes for me to get to what has ever convinced me of a possible jhana. To reach that state requires absolute absence of 99% of thoughts, and breathing meditation, even deeply, at least for me, or any of the other typical things never work since for me, on a subtle level I'm still thinking "concentrate", "yeah", "hey, still concentrating". Obviously not verbally, not linguistically, but subtly I am. I know on those Trams I wasn't in my right mind but either I was in a very convincing trance to have experienced those jhanas I typically experience and then went two or three times deeper to have forgotten my own existance for several minutes at a time as I'd said, or I truly had a spiritual breakthrough. Had, mind you, had.
A. doing something correctly, and
B. maybe if I became a monastic and enlightenment was a real potential, I could achieve it maybe.
there are multiple jhanas. The first is characterized by pleasure and joy.
valois- why is enlightenment only a real possibility if you enter the monastic life? Buddhist scriptures themselves speak of enlightened lay people. I'm not gonna say entering the monastic life doesn't make it easier, as there aren't many opportunities for attachment, but it's certainly possible without, you just have a couple more challenges, but if you overcome it's the same either way.
Regarding lay people becoming enlightened, I know it's theoretically possible but in my opinion very unlikely especially with all the distraction of the modern media age.
I'm not sure what each of the jhana's are like, I just know the first one is pleasure and joy. I'm sure a google search would show you, though.
Even if we weren't in the Information Age, I believe it's not likely that everyone would become enlightened. However, I believe that you're right in that people were more enlightened back in the days. If one took the time to interpret the level of enlightenment in ancient artifacts such as the hieroglyphics in the pyramids in Egypt, it's astonishing.
We are programmed in today's age, and rarely think for ourselves. Sometimes I laugh at how coincidental it is that they call it a radio or television program. Interesting choice of words.
The show isn't programmed but rather we are the programmees!
Just sit.
And maybe don't flaunt the pain killers you abuse to pursue your gaining idea. :orange:
The decision was mine, but I simply cannot conclude that there is anything worthwhile or constructive to be gained in advocating their use.
particularly if it is for purely recreational purposes, and we all know what The Precepts say about that.
It borders on consent to leave the comments, I am told, so I took the safe bet and edited.
Thanks all.