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the why

TheJourneyTheJourney
edited October 2010 in Buddhism Basics
What do you guys think, when you have realizations that just resonate with you and you intuitively know is it best to just accept them or must you figure out why it's true? What if when reading a sutra of the buddha you know that it's true but you can't describe why it's true.

Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Weird. Like what? Usually if it's something like a major tenet of Buddhism, say Impermanence, there are plenty of things to point to as evidence of this law. Of course to have the insight of Impermanence which gives conviction is beyond acceptance, but the grounding is solid enough. I can't speak for everyone, but when I've experienced any insights in meditation they came about through a process of mental connect-the-dots that was neither forced nor lacking in any regard. In other words, the insight itself is the reasoning and conviction of the mind that has no ignorance of the process left. Which means having the insight, you have your own proof (can't be shared, too complex and all-encompassing with details yada yada, but whatcha gonna do).

    I might not be saying that right.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    Weird. Like what? Usually if it's something like a major tenet of Buddhism, say Impermanence, there are plenty of things to point to as evidence of this law. Of course to have the insight of Impermanence which gives conviction is beyond acceptance, but the grounding is solid enough.

    My reading of the diamond sutra is what inspired this thread. It's my second time reading it, and both times I just knew it was true when I read it. It's hard to explain, it just seems so obvious. Actually I think I may have thought of a "why" but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be convincing to people who aren't of a certain understanding.
    I can't speak for everyone, but when I've experienced such insights they came about through a process of mental connect-the-dots that was neither forced nor lacking in any regard. In other words, the insight itself is the reasoning and conviction of the mind that has no ignorance of the process left.

    I might not be saying that right.
    For me it's kinda like that except I know the truth the whole time. It's like I know the truth but i'm afraid to say it, so I play connect-the-dots until I know that it makes sense. When I read the buddha's words I know that it must be true, so I don't worry myself about justifying it as much, but what I described is my general method to personal insights I have not directly from reading words of the buddha.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I've found that when something resonates with me, the reason it resonates is because it's true. Most often I find that it's probably been resonating all along, I was just too asleep to realize it. It's only as you begin to let go of previous assumptions and constructs that you open up to these 'new' truths. But they're really not 'new' at all, are they? They've always been there - just buried.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited October 2010
    Mountains wrote: »
    I've found that when something resonates with me, the reason it resonates is because it's true. Most often I find that it's probably been resonating all along, I was just too asleep to realize it. It's only as you begin to let go of previous assumptions and constructs that you open up to these 'new' truths. But they're really not 'new' at all, are they? They've always been there - just buried.

    What if we all know the truth, but we are blinded by assumptions. For instance, if I were to try to explain the truth to someone, they would know that it was true EXCEPT they have an incorrect assumption which leads to dismissing what they know is true to cling to false belief. This is why it's so important not to have assumptions. I believe this is a lot of why I am so receptive to the truth, I have dropped all assumptions(well, i'd like to think) and so when I hear truth I am more able to know it's true.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    TJ: If we're just talking about a deep abiding sense of something being true, that's not out of the ordinary. Buddhism is about the truth and so it's natural that such resonance would occur and it feel like it's right. This is different than insight, where the mind shows you why it's right, but a good thing nonetheless. Remember though that there are people just as strongly convinced of other possibilities, which may or may not be true; insight-meditation can't be overlooked. The connect-the-dots of Vipassana, of the actual experience of insight itself, is a much more "absolute" form that isn't a conceptual framework. Our normal way of connecting dots is like the creation of a scientific "theory", a structure that fits the facts and looks good on paper but our true mind isn't settled on it yet.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    TJ: If we're just talking about a deep abiding sense of something being true, that's not out of the ordinary. Buddhism is about the truth and so it's natural that such resonance would occur and it feel like it's right. This is different than insight, where the mind shows you why it's right, but a good thing nonetheless. Remember though that there are people just as strongly convinced of other possibilities, which may or may not be true; insight-meditation can't be overlooked.

    How do you think I came to the understanding where I knew it was true? I'm on a journey, as my name implies, and I have these realizations but when I have them I have a tendancy to be somewhat afraid of accepting them because it shakes my entire understanding and so I try to make sure it makes sense before I accept it. I'm becoming more accepting, though, and i'm to a point where if it makes sense it's probably true.

    Your post had a tone to me that implied that I didn't have true insight. The buddha himself said when we understand these things it's because of merit accrued in past lives. All I meant was that I can feel it before i'm willing to say it.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I thought you just said you read it and "knew"? It resonated? I was referring to the experience of insight in Vipassana. Maybe we're getting our wires crossed.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    I thought you just said you read it and "knew"? It resonated? I was referring to the experience of insight in Vipassana. Maybe we're getting our wires crossed.

    In OP I was referring to that, but that's not the only way I have achieved knowledge. I guess we're just misunderstanding each other lol. I'm just saying that i've had insight too, in fact the reason why i'm so sure of buddhism is cuz I already had thought of so much of it before I had ever studied buddhism.

    As I said though, misunderstanding I think :)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Yeah that's confusing, but not a problem. :) I think from your OP we could call one type of insight "subconscious insight", or the know-it-in-the-gut insight that something is true but you don't know why. The other type would be "conscious insight", where it not only clicks but you're absolutely sure because you've seen it with clarity/one-pointedness in Vipassana meditation.

    But again that's confusing. I don't like using the word insight except to mean the second type, at least dealing with anything "Buddhist". Hmmmmmmmm.

    I apologize for any "tone" that offended you. I didn't intend one, was just trying to be open and honest in communicating my replies.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    Yeah that's confusing, but not a problem. :) I think from your OP we could call one type of insight "subconscious insight", or the know-it-in-the-gut insight that something is true but you don't know why. The other type would be "conscious insight", where it not only clicks but you're absolutely sure because you've seen it with clarity.

    But again that's confusing. I don't like using the word insight except to mean the second type, at least dealing with anything "Buddhist". Hmmmmmmmm.

    I apologize for any "tone" that offended you. I didn't intend one, was just trying to be open and honest in communicating my replies.

    Although the truth transcends logic. You can't logically think of the truth. Logic can help you to understand the truth, but ultimately that logic is faulty. That's why "feel it in the gut" insight is very helpful, because it means that you've probably already learned it in a past life and don't need to jump through hoops to learn it again. Like I said, I like to make sure using my mind, but often I can feel it first. To quote the buddha.
    "Without a doubt, Subhuti. Even 500 years after the Enlightenment of this Buddha there will be some who are virtuous and wise, and while practicing compassion and charity, will believe in the words and phrases of this Sutra and will awaken their minds purely. After they come to hear these teachings, they will be inspired with belief. This is because when some people hear these words, they will have understood intuitively that these words are the truth."
    "But you must also remember, Subhuti, that such persons have long ago planted the seeds of goodness and merit that lead to this realization. They have planted the seeds of good deeds and charity not simply before one Buddhist temple, or two temples, or five, but before hundreds of thousands of Buddhas and temples. So when a person who hears the words and phrases of this Sutra is ready for it to happen, a pure faith and clarity can awaken within their minds."
    "Subhuti, any person who awakens faith upon hearing the words or phrases of this Sutra will accumulate countless blessings and merit."
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Ah, well that helps actually. Instead of calling the "from the gut" assurance a type of insight, the proper word might be "intuition". Could we do that to make it easier to keep track of? And I absolutely agree that whatever we call it, that is greatly beneficial and helps alleviate many doubts, which makes our complete penetration of the teachings that much easier.

    Intuition which resonates and gives initial conviction; Insight which brings absolute conviction.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited October 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    Ah, well that helps actually. Instead of calling the "from the gut" assurance a type of insight, the proper word might be "intuition". Could we do that to make it easier to keep track of?

    Intuition which resonates and gives initial conviction; Insight which brings absolute conviction.

    I used intuitively in OP and then you brought in the gut into the picture:lol: idk if that sounded rude I just thought it was funny. We can use whatever term you want :)

    And yes, that's why I said I feel it but then I make sure it's true. To use your terms, first intuition then insight.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Good stuff. :)
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