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Porn
I saw a thread earlier on porn but it might've been deleted cause I don't see it here now but I found a very interesting anti-porn resource.
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/anitpornhome.htm
Based on the articles on this site, I think there is enough evidence for me to fully abstain from using pornography. It's clear not only that these women are very badly humiliated and exploited but also it reinforces the patriarchal culture we have.
Thoughts on this?
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/anitpornhome.htm
Based on the articles on this site, I think there is enough evidence for me to fully abstain from using pornography. It's clear not only that these women are very badly humiliated and exploited but also it reinforces the patriarchal culture we have.
Thoughts on this?
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Comments
I really don't know. Maybe because it was a trolling thread?
So I don't believe the idea that porn is obviously non-buddhist and destructive should be debated here, but an explanation as to why wouldn't be out of place.
Porn is just a form of artwork. It's sex and lust put into photography or film. It's the same as wanting to eat good food. Maybe someone wants to eat a good pizza today and they do not have the proper oven to make a good one themselves. Maybe someone wants to see a pretty girl today and they do not yet have the means to get one themselves. It's all desire of course, but moderation is important. I don't buy that shit about dumping all your desires. I have never met anyone with money that has no desires.
As for porn objectifying women, I strongly disagree. They aren't forced into anything. They choose to do it. And to say that a man and a woman doing the same thing objectifies the woman more cannot be accurate. I'm not trying to argue though, and if I were to debate something it certainly wouldn't be something as frivelous as this, especially since I agree that buddhists shouldn't watch it.
I have 2 thoughts. As for your thought that you should choose which desires are unskillful and simply weed out those, that's...true to a degree. Prioritize. The goal is to rid yourself of all craving. If you can't do that yet, crave that which is not particlarly harmful. Certainly cut out the cravings which are immoral and hurt people, and work your way up, trying to cut as many as you can/all.
As for your last point, I kinda agree. I said this on another topic in this forum recently as well. I disagree with the notion that porn particularly degrades woman, unless it's degrading porn in which case she may very well like it and certainly signed up for it, letalone that it degrades men more than woman, but if thinking that's the case is helpful to make you stop watching porn then by all means, think such.
Thailand = Buddhist country
at the same time it's hot spot for sex tourism.
I heard someething like Buddhism there allows poor women to earn a living through sex service..... I dunno if this is true. Anyone knows about it?
2. Women are given the illusion of having power by letting guys do what they want to them, which is really a submission of power.
3. Women are given the message that their sole purpose and real value in life is to serve men and look good.
4. Women are given the message, look like this, act like this, be this shape, do this in bed, and if you don't you're undesirable.
5. When many people watch porn they put their own orgasm above the pain of another human being especially as the actors are required to perform ever more extreme, aggressive, humiliating and disrespectful acts.
6. Porn use tends to escalate. It can lead to psychological problems, emotional problems and impotence.
7. Porn can lead to marital and family breakdown.
..........
Point number one should be good enough reason not to, I could go on but people are probably going to carry one thinking what they're thinking.
The thought that Thailand is a nominally, culturally, or politically Buddhist country and therefore allows porn is highly dubious. I don't think it's correct to call Thailand a Buddhist country just because the majority of people say they subscribe to Buddhism. There's a whole lot of difference between what people say and what they actually do, just like in any country. The thought that Thailand supports the sex trade and is Buddhist at the same time is both ridiculous and appalling.
I agree with you. South East Asia doesn't have a huge sex trade because of Buddhism. It has a huge sex trade because it is a tourist hub for people who have lots of money (by Thai standards), and home to many people who have very, very little. And because law enforcement there is perhaps not as effective as it is here in the west, hence the number of child prostitutes. It really comes down to human exploitation... "You help me get my rocks off, and I'll put food on your table for a week". In many cases, a "John" is really just helping to pay for a new car stereo for the prostitute's (er... sex slave's) "owner".
I'd say porn is human exploitation, for the most part, too. Sure, some people get into the industry because they think it's fun, the money's great, and so on. But it shouldn't be difficult to recognize that many of the people entering this industry have some serious un-tackled emotional issues, or are desperate, or have just been living unskillfully, or have been abused or neglected, or are addicted to drugs, or what have you.
How can viewing this material support a life of developing compassion and wisdom? Watching porn deeply distorts a person's way of viewing people (ei as a mere means to "getting off", aka an "object"), it separates them from the reality of the people on the screen (they're not real people... just video images of people I've never met) which makes it very difficult for them to have compassion for other sentient life unless it's directly in front of them. And it leads to both craving and delusion (however subtle). On the more serious side of things, many serial rapists/murderers (eg. Ted Bundy) built their foundation of lust and desire for more thrills on a regular diet of porn.
I'd say that watching porn goes pretty directly in opposition of Right Action. It may not hurt anyone directly, but it supports an exploitative and terribly addictive industry that creates and perpetuates immeasurable suffering all over the world.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Yours in the Dhamma/Dharma,
Todd
I actually have so many reasons porn is a negative thing I don't even know where to go from here... but you should really do your research, personal opinions are often biased or misconceptions without proper research. I thought porn could be art back when I was a teen, then I actually started reading up on it, it's almost sickening how some actresses are treated. Also, many argue that porn acts as a channel, keeping people from doing what they fantasize about, but the actually records say otherwise, sexual violence and exploitation is one of the few crimes on the rise globally.
Also, even if you try to defend it saying you don't pay for it, advertisements get them money, just by clicking a porn link and closing a pop-up, someone's making money off you.
The girls I have known who do porn, do not tell their family exactly what they do. They usually have a good lie that gets rid of the curiosity. And well that's there choice. For them to want to continue doing it, obviously there is more benefit than not. When they don't want to do it anymore they will change occupations. The girl who does solo porn will not risk as much as a boxer or a professional fighter, or police officer (there are many examples).
I don't think this has to do with porn. I think this would be a psychological problem that goes deeper. Many porn is solo, without guys.
Again this doesn't have to do solely with porn because a lot of porn has no men. The porn I watch tends to always be solo with just the girl. Yes many women are obsessed with looking good, but that's not the fault of porn, it is all over our media.
The same is expected from men now days. Ask yourself really. Who is more shallow, a modern man or a modern woman? In my experience women expect more from men, then men expect from women.
The porn I watch rarely ever has anything going on that is humiliating or aggressive towards women. And if it does (which I wouldn't care for that type) then I assure you the woman signed up for it and she knows very well what she is doing. I've been with a girl who actually likes rough sex, and requested that type of thing.
Anything can cause psychological, and emotional problems. You can't say that porn can do this to you more than fattening food can for example. And for impotence, well I do know that when males work out doing cardio and weight lifting for example, they're improving the blood flow and testosterone in their body. That aids for good erections, whenever you need them.
Addiction leads to that. Can be addiction of alcohol, gambling, video games, many things, not just porn.
And what's all this objectifying women stuff? There are plenty of girls who watch porn. Nobody is ever saying it's objectifying men. So is ALL porn objectifying women? Is gay porn objectifying women? No, 'course not...
Whatever problems you have with porn are actually problems with the particular directors involved, not porn as a whole.
Maybe read some interviews with the actresses involved to realise that they are actually quite happy with their jobs.
You're insulted because I think it is art lol? I am an artist too. Some of my most favorite art is erotic in nature. The female body is a beautiful subject to use as artwork. Have you ever heard of hentai and ecchi? This is purely illustrated erotic art. Go tell those artists that their artwork is not art. I think that would actually be justified to be insulting. Porn isn't just two people having sex, much of it, is just one girl being shown in artistic ways.
There is all types of porn. Most porn sites are completely against illegal porn. And they ask if you see it on their site such as someone posting it for you to report it to them and they will report it to authorities. I would think the porn you talk about is negative in nature. But this is not all porn, there is all types of it you can think of.
Do my research? I have been looking at porn since I was 13 lol. I know plenty about it. You're the one I see with the misconceptions here. It seems like you're assuming all porn has actresses that are treated bad. This is not the case, because if it was the case there wouldn't be so many porn stars that stay in the business for over 10 years. Porn is a huge business too, there are so many girls that do it now, on their own choice. If it was a bad experience for them they wouldn't be doing it.
A lot of porn is solo too. There is no acting there. It is just a model with someone taking pictures or filming them. And sometimes not even someone filming them, they're doing it themselves with a webcam. I really don't see anything wrong with that.
I don't pay for it. If someone gets money off of me by me clicking on a link and closing a pop up, good for them. I can't imagine how they would be getting money off of that though.
Occasional porn does not disrupt my practice. Because I only study Buddhism and take what is useful. I respect the good psychology of Buddhism, but if there is anything in it that doesn't make sense to me I discard it.
I just look at porn as entertainment. The same way you would categorize video games or TV. Any of that without moderation will do harm, but I don't see occasional porn doing more harm than a world of warcraft subscription for example.
To me it just doesn't make sense for Buddhist to condone porn as harmful or negative karma. It really looks to me like Christian fanaticism. Porn is so varied, and the bottom line is, in modern America it's a legitimate business that is well maintained. The girls don't do it unless they want to do it.
If I was a beautiful woman I'd have no problem with doing solo porn. I wouldn't encourage hardcore porn, but I see nothing wrong with the solo porn. I would even say it's a good option for a struggling college student, or someone without college education. That is why I defended it. I just don't see the sense in labeling it overall as a harmful medium.
Mr Serenity, I really do not think we need another champion of porn in addition to the millions and millions of people who don't even give it a second thought, unless it is your intention to change the minds of the dissenting few. It should be fairly obvious no-one is going to open a pro-porn thread in the face of a unanimous social trend.
This should be a thread where we question the use of porn. Is it really that harmless? Please understand it was my intention here to highlight some of the issues surrounding pornography in relation to people. As a 37 year old man who discovered pornography as a little boy, I feel that I have been damaged in some way. Although I have nothing to hide now, it is my intention to find out what other people have to say. I wish to become educated on the matter so that I can start to really live and become well again.
I appreciate your thoughts on the matter but really, I could have wrote those comments myself. You won't change my mind on the subject. I could even come up with several points to counter yours but I have more important things to do. Like I said, people are going to think what they're going to think, so be it. But before you decide to continue hijacking this thread, please think about what I wrote.
Watching porn is just one way to act on that desire. I don't think that it's the best way but if one doesn't have a partner or that partner is sexually unavailable I don't see anything criminal with indulging in it. Either way you're going to self-pleasure, why not make it more fun by looking at some relevant images?
The problem arises when one becomes obsessed with porn and spends many hours watching it, neglecting other aspects of their life. That can certainly happen. But then one can become obsessed with food, shopping, gambling and other things. I believe that there's nothing special about porn-- I believe the frequency with which this topic comes up on this forum is tastement to how deeply the puritanic views of our ancestors are still ingrained into us.
Finally, I can't even say that porn is always unksillful. Imagine the following situation (I can tell you with certainty it's not unrealistic). A guy is married but his wife has something going on in her life and her mind just isn't into sex at the moment. The guy can keep pestering her all the time, get upset, start fights or even cheat on her. That can make for a very poisonous atmosphere in the house. Or he can just go online, have a blast and get it over with. He is not angry, the wife is not aggravated by his unwanted advances, the family is not compromised by infidelity and the household is quiet.
If we are to accept our sexual desire, porn kind of makes sense for a lot of people as a temporary source of relief of sexual tension.
Also, two things I noted at a quick glance, these two points were given:
1. ShiftPlusOne, men are objectified too. it's natural in the brain, to not be able to consider those outside of a certain number as the same as us, we dehumanize those we don't know, it's not wrong, it's just our brains way of coping with what would otherwise be infinitely too complex to handle. We don't see the thousands of women in porn as people, and this is of course from my male perspective. Women objectify men too. Two wrongs doesn't equal a right. And people who look at porn aren't thinking of the well being of the actress, you can claim you don't see her as an object, but you don't think of her on a human level, it's not possible ot do so, because if you did you would probably feel guilt much worse than the benefits of masturbation.
2. Mr Serenity, That's like saying, I grew up reading books, so I'm an authority on printing, or I've been raised in an extreme right-wing politically active family, so my understanding of politics is infallible . You don't see the whole picture looking at something from such a limited perspective. And erotica and porn are not the same, one is explicit, a nude form isn't wrong or inappropriate, but images and videos that entice lust is.
Also, the same can be said for humans, you say they do it because they want to, but how often do we go to our jobs because we want to? it's a means to make money, and in a society that sees money as god, it not uncommon to think it's worth doing something you don't feel right with morally. That doesn't mean it doesn't conflict with better interests, and yes porn in america is well regulated, but it's not without accidents, I believe two pornstars just got HIV due to refusal to allow condoms because it was a "turn off" to viewers. And when was the last time someone truly respected a porn-star? because even if women think they're empowering themselves by fighting the norm, they're still oft nothing more than objects of desire for men, it's nothing more than self delusion. Also, I'm not christian, and disagree with many of christian followers closed mindedness. Also, I'm not saying ban it, because the demand for it would still be there, I don't think it's evil, but I don't think anyone calling themselves a Buddhist would/should have anything to do with porn (there's a reason there are so many rules about interacting with women for monks, because Buddha was well aware of the dangers of lust.
And just by going to those sites, as stated, they make money, and you further porn production.
...
Mr Serenity, would you call yourself a Buddhist? I don't mean that as an insult. Just that the way you say you approach Buddhism seems more like a non-committal interest in certain philosophical aspects, not as a practitioner, because a lot of the things you say to argue for porn, have been answered by many of the more obscure texts regarding lust. it which case I guess I can understand where your views on porn come from as someone who's not so deeply tied into Buddhist beliefs. Not that this is bad, I'm just having trouble understanding the way you think.
No insult taken. I approach Buddhism for the practical aspects. I watch Ajahn Brahm almost once a week or more for example. He is my favorite Buddhist teacher. I have also read vows before and learned from both Zen and Tibetan lineages, but I consider myself more Agnostic with respect to some Buddhist philosophy than an actual Buddhist.
I love fighting (warrior spirit, not making victims), sex and good food too much to consider myself a pure Buddhist. These are my realizations, so I live life in a way where I try not to regret too much. I don't like following rules that I see no use for. So I do gather the stuff that I deem is useful, and question and disregard the rest.
In the practical way that I try to look at life, I do see porn as a possible useful application. Not saying it is all great, because nothing is flawless, but I don't feel it should be completely rejected in all scenarios.
Different opinions for different people.
If you think it's contrary to your Progress on the path, fine, leave it.
If you don't believe it's doing you any harm, fine keep going.
If you believe it's exploitative and destructive - then do something about it.
Fine words butter no parsnips.
Talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words.
Make comments by all means, but whatever they are - back them up.
Or else we just have a whole load of yet more hot wind here.
Don't we?