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Hello, and I have a question
:wavey:
Hi newbuddhist forum users! I recently stumbled across your website a couple of weeks ago, and have been reading through some threads. I have to say I like the feeling of this place! It seems like a good place to learn and to discuss ideas about how we can live and act in our modern day lives while applying the concepts of Eastern philosophy. But I made this thread specifically with a question in mind, so let me get to it.
In general, it seems to me that the focus of Buddhism is to mitigate your desires and aversions so that you can reduce your suffering. My question is this....why do we have an aversion to suffering in the first place? The first Noble Truth says that life is suffering, and that we inevitably must all experience it. So suffering is natural, real, and true in that exists in our reality. By seeking to avoid it, aren't we just incurring more of it?
I believe that one can ultimately learn from suffering. Pain makes you feel real, and in a way it verifies your existence. Some of the most beautiful works of art and most beautiful forms of expression have arisen from people who have experienced great amounts of suffering. I'm not saying that suffering is enjoyable, I'm not a masochist or anything of the sort, but it seems to me that many young people today dabbling in Buddhism see pain and suffering as the ultimate aversion. And that if they are experiencing suffering, then they beat themselves up over it and think that they are a terrible person, hence adding to their suffering. Many Buddhists make it their life long goal to completely eliminate suffering from their lives. But if you just realize that pain is natural, that is part of samsara, then you can learn vast amounts from it and you can use that knowledge to improve your quality of life.
So basically, I'm asking....why fear pain? Personally, I would not want to live a life in which I experienced no suffering at all.
Hi newbuddhist forum users! I recently stumbled across your website a couple of weeks ago, and have been reading through some threads. I have to say I like the feeling of this place! It seems like a good place to learn and to discuss ideas about how we can live and act in our modern day lives while applying the concepts of Eastern philosophy. But I made this thread specifically with a question in mind, so let me get to it.
In general, it seems to me that the focus of Buddhism is to mitigate your desires and aversions so that you can reduce your suffering. My question is this....why do we have an aversion to suffering in the first place? The first Noble Truth says that life is suffering, and that we inevitably must all experience it. So suffering is natural, real, and true in that exists in our reality. By seeking to avoid it, aren't we just incurring more of it?
I believe that one can ultimately learn from suffering. Pain makes you feel real, and in a way it verifies your existence. Some of the most beautiful works of art and most beautiful forms of expression have arisen from people who have experienced great amounts of suffering. I'm not saying that suffering is enjoyable, I'm not a masochist or anything of the sort, but it seems to me that many young people today dabbling in Buddhism see pain and suffering as the ultimate aversion. And that if they are experiencing suffering, then they beat themselves up over it and think that they are a terrible person, hence adding to their suffering. Many Buddhists make it their life long goal to completely eliminate suffering from their lives. But if you just realize that pain is natural, that is part of samsara, then you can learn vast amounts from it and you can use that knowledge to improve your quality of life.
So basically, I'm asking....why fear pain? Personally, I would not want to live a life in which I experienced no suffering at all.
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Comments
The example you used about people trying to avoid pain and then beating themselves up over it creating more pain... that's what Buddhism teaches to overcome.
The first noble truth as you say points out that life is suffering,however Lord Buddha shows us there is a way out of our suffering.
We have the suffering of suffering,the suffering of change etc.
Suffering is of course real,but at times totally un-necessary.
We want things that we cant have and that causes suffering.We have things and then lose them(jobs,partners,cars etc)and that causes suffering.
In buddhism we learn to let go of our suffering.Of course seeking to avoid suffering can lead to more suffering,but for me,it is just seeing suffering for what it is.Impermanent and I take no ownership of it.
I have no control over certain things.If I want to go for a walk and suddenly it starts to rain then my walk is off(unless you like walking in the rain)I can either suffer because my walk is off or just accept it is raining and maybe appreciate that I have a roof over my head to keep me dry.
Ultimately for a buddhist it is to end the cycle of samsara and it is the craving and aversions that we attach to that cause us the endless suffering of birth,aging,sickness and death.
Can you learn from your pain.Yes you can,but the ultimate aim is liberation.
With metta
Can you learn from your pain.Yes you can,but the ultimate aim is liberation.
Yes, this is what I am talking about. Why is it necessary to be totally liberated from pain and suffering? If suffering, as you say, is impermanent and you do not have to own it, why can we not simply say, "I am a human and I am alive. Therefore, it is part of my nature to experience suffering." And leave it at that?
Yes, I agree when you say that many forms of suffering are totally unnecessary, and are nearly always self-inflicted. But if we can become aware of that very act of self-infliction, then we learn a great deal about ourselves.
Clearly, the Buddha suffered significantly before he experienced his great awakening. After he achieved enlightenment, did never experience suffering again? That is debatable and no one will truly ever know except for the Buddha himself.
But for the average, every day person attempting to walk the path of Buddhism, is it a realistic expectation to be completely liberated from suffering? Or is it, perhaps, a better stance to accept and learn from what suffering you do encounter along your path, and to use that knowledge to become more sympathetic to your fellow humans?
As ShiftPlusOne said..are we going to be skillful about our suffering?
It is true that we can use our knowledge of personal suffering to help others.As an ex heroin addict I have been able to talk to at risk youth about my experiences.
"(W)e may think that the Buddha is offering a theory - 'All things are suffering' - that we have to prove in our daily life. But in other parts of the same sutras, the Buddha says that he only wants us to recognize suffering when it is present and to recognize joy when suffering is absent.....
The argument, 'Impermanent, therefore suffering, therefore nonself' is illogical..... To put suffering on the same level as impermanence and nonself is an error. Impermanence and nonself are 'universal'. They are a 'mark' of all things. Suffering is not."
(The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, chap. 5)
I guess my point here is that, many Buddhists teach/preach strict adherence to the Four Noble Truths in such a way that Buddhism begins to take on the form of a religion. In modern day practice and for the every day person, the strict abolishment of suffering is practically unachievable. And yet people seem to set that goal. I find this to be detrimental to their development.
LiveToLearn, the word 'suffering' is somewhat of a mistranslation. The real meaning is closer to 'dissatisfaction'. So when you say "I am a human and I am alive. Therefore, it is part of my nature to experience suffering", you're actually letting go of that dissatisfaction. You still know that the situation is there... you're just not going through the suffering related to it. You're not avoiding the situation, you're dealing with it head on.
Does that make sense?
Not really. The first step to ending suffering is to understand that it is a fact of life and not possible to "avoid". Trying to avoid it just makes more. However, when one understands that suffering is entirely self created, why would you choose to continue creating it? To use an analogy, when you realize that your left hand is bleeding and in pain because your right hand is stabbing it with a fork, why would you just sit there and let this continue? The reasonable action to take is to simply stop stabbing yourself. Yes, you can learn more about yourself by observing that activity, but would you really chose to continue stabbing yourself just so you could observe it? That sounds like the action of an insane person!
Unfortunately, applying this idea isn't always so simple, at least it hasn't been for me. If it was so easy to simply stop worrying, to stop the act of self-pity, to just drop all your bad habits on a dime...well then the world would be a peachy creamy place wouldn't it?
But, I do see what you are getting at. This is what Buddhists refer to as discipline, is it not? You choose to quit stabbing yourself with the fork...but you've been stabbing yourself for so long, you've become accustomed to the pain and its the only thing your hand knows how to do. So then how do you actually stop? You have to force your hand down, and continue to force it down otherwise it will pick the fork back up again and keep doing what it always does.
I guess as I've made my journey and dealt with my own inner turmoils, I frequently wonder if I will ever overcome them. Sometimes I think the easier solution is to just accept the fact that I will occasionally worry and doubt myself, and to instead focus more on how I can be compassionate towards others.
Any thoughts on this?
Yes it makes perfect sense.
Personally, I am a person who is prone to self-consciousness, and sometimes I find myself envying others, which causes me some discomfort. When I experience these emotions, I don't try to force myself to stop the thought but instead I face it and try to understand the underlying cause.
Yes the world would be that way if you could just drop them on a dime. But no one can just do that, which is why it is called a practice.
Yes it is a discipline. According to Buddhism, the way to stop is to understand the The Four Noble Truths and an 8 step process called the 8 fold path., which is the 4th truth. Formal meditation practice is a large part of that path because it allows you to momentarily drop the fork and force your hand down, so to speak. It is a bit inaccurate to say that you are "forcing your hand down" though. A more accurate description would be something more like "your brain stops sending signals to your hand and your hand stops by itself."
It is true that you have to continue to "stop the signals" over and over. However, after you keep doing that it becomes easier and easier and easier until your hand finally realizes that it is part of one body and has been stabbing itself this whole time, when that happens it just stops doing it. Who in their right mind knowingly goes around stabbing themselves? No one!
When a meditation practice develops to certain degree what will happen is the worry and doubt that one previously thought would never go away, just disappear by themselves. Therefore, there is no need to "get rid of them". When one becomes proficient at "stopping the signals" they gradually dissipate naturally.
This 8 step process also naturally increases the amount of compassion one has for others and causes one to naturally act in accordance with that compassion, as well as giving rise to the effort to deliberately cultivate more compassion for others as well as for oneself.