Your comment on Penn & Teller

pain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYEOSCIOnrs

Pretty rash and blatant words just like any other Penn & Teller series.. but i wonder how much of this is true and what other buddhists think of these claims.

Mountains

Just words...

ShiftPlusOne

I wouldn't be surprised if it was accurate. I know I don't trust anything that the CIA touches, so I never really viewed the DL as a holy man. However, he has done some great work, certainly more good than bad.

caz

Some real horror stories have come out of Tibet, It was certainly no Shangri-la. Before or after Invasion.
This Damn samsara...Things are never what they seem.

Mr_Serenity

Penn and Teller are just being bitter Atheists who want to talk down religion. Other Atheists like them get laughs out of it, which I myself have to admit I did laugh a bit about his video at Gandhi being a racist. Which was new to me and I wouldn't doubt, due to the times being different.

So what though, no one is perfect. Being exiled from your home region would change most people forever. I feel the Dalai lama turned out as a great person despite having to experience that. He is a good representative for Buddhism. I have never heard him say anything mean, unfair or dumb.

Invincible_summer

Well HHDL has stated that he regrets taking money from the CIA, as the US just used Tibet as a pawn in Cold War tactics.

He also stated that he thought the Chinese Revolution did improve the quality of life for many people (although it had its problems).

I used to be in the "The Dalai Lama is a fraud" camp back when I was a militant atheist, but I couldn't find any evidence that he would re-instate such a feudal theocracy. Now I just want people who are not for a Free Tibet to prove that such a theocracy would come into being.

It's also hypocritical for anyone to say "Oh look the Dalai Lama preaches peace but Lamas lived in a highly unequal society" when every society is as such. Presidents of powerful countries preach "peacekeeping" and "human rights" when they commit war atrocities and violence on a global scale.

Joshua

I read that in ancient Greece, where the foundation of democracy is credited, that democracy was a popular alternative to an oligarchy despite what the common populace and forum goers thought. History and some political theorists seem to prove that democracies working with capitalism, due to the nature of capitalism will always degrade to socialism then to communism and either back to capitalism as a "fix" or begin to resemble a quasi-feudalism. All governmental systems are in a state of flux and the bigger a constituency the greater the likelihood of it's common goal to collapse. It doesn't really matter, you make be luckier to be in something closer to a Utopia at some point in history but even the Utopia will collapse into a Dystopia.

Regarding the Dalai Lama, you've got to consider what it'd be like to have the weight of perfection thrust upon your shoulders since your earliest memories.

Nirvana

For myself, I just cannot understand what would motivate anyone to continue watching this kind of alley garbage tirade. With disgust, I saw it to its end, but was not convinced of anything but the cancerous characters of those presenting their spiel.

I don't know all the Ins and Outs concerning the CIA matter, but can only guess that HHDL fell under their influence awhile only due to the overwhelming circumstances in which Tibetans in diaspora found themselves. He did not act for his own personal interests as these swine declare in their barnyard mannerisms.

Also, I believe HHDL is clear that Tibet should be given autonomy and should enjoy democratic rule.

caz

There are de-classified documents regarding such subject in the CIA's archeives. Certainly and Interesting read through.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp

Nirvana

foia.cia.gov/search.asp only yields:

Results 1 through 10 of 10
(EST PUB DATE) INDIA: IMPROVED RELATIONS WITH CHINA TEMPERED BY CONFLICT AND CO GIF PDF Created: 9/1/1994
NEAR EAST AND SOUTH ASIA REVIEW GIF PDF Created: 11/3/1989
(EST PUB DATE) SOVIET RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA: APPARATUS AND OPERATIONS GIF PDF Created: 2/1/1987
THE DETERIORATION OF SINO-SOVIET RELATIONS: 1956-1966 GIF PDF Created: 4/22/1966
INTEL HANDBOOK
THE SECURITY OF INDIA'S HIMALAYAN FRONTIER GIF PDF Created: 8/30/1963
HISTORICAL SKETCH OF THE SINO-INDIAN DISPUTE GIF PDF Created: 12/18/1962
NIE 100-2-60 - SINO-INDIAN RELATIONS GIF PDF Created: 5/17/1960
NIE 13-59 - COMMUNIST CHINA GIF PDF Created: 7/28/1959
MESSAGE FROM THE DALAI LAMA TO THE PRESIDENT AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE (W/ATT GIF PDF Created: 6/17/1959
(UNTITLED) RE DALAI LAMA AND OFFICIALS ARRIVED SAFELY IN INDIA GIF PDF Created: 4/2/1959
http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp

Sorry, but these read more like journalists' reports to me. I cannot find any details on "shady deals."

Penn & Teller are what my good neighbors would call "trailer trash."

If you want peace of mind and a closer approximation to the truth, just don't pay people like this any attention. That is my sincere advice.

Shutoku

My thoughts are that most things can be spun into anything you want.

The CIA thing may not be exactly as presented. I mean the US has a bit of a history of covertly supporting a variety of groups who oppose those the US view as enemies.So it is pretty clear the CIA may have had quite a strong interest at one time, in supporting any group they thought might help topple a Communist power. How hands on and in the loop on such things HHDL actually was we can only speculate about.

As for the historical accuracy of Tibet before the Chinese occupation, I think it is pretty clear that it was not the idealized society some might like to imagine. I'm not sure that means the DL is a terrible human being or leader though. I also don't think it justifies the Chinese occupation or the atrocities commited by the Chinese.
To suggest that if Tibet was "freed" would mean HHDL would immediately return things to what they were 100 years ago, is pretty ridiculous.

That said, I do not think HHDL is infallible. I think he is human and makes mistakes.

I also feel that often in our society there seems to be a strong desire to tear down anyone who seems to be noble and inspiring. I really think some of this is because if we can get dirt on the "noble" people, we don't need to feel so bad about not being "noble' ourselves.
If HHDL and Mother Theresa are assholes, then it's ok if I am one too.

For myself I think having heros and ideals and role models is good for people, and helps us aspire to be better.
I'm all for exposing corruption, but I'm not so much into character assassination just for gaining professional notoriety.