Membership fees?

Valekhai

Is it unusual for a sangha to have some sort of regular membership fee attached to becoming a member?
I'm reaching a point in my examination of Buddhism that I think it would be beneficial to start visiting a zen center. Due to my current schedule and the condition of my car, the ones that I would really like to visit are a bit far for me to visit on a regular basis, but there is another one that is very close me. However, according to their website, there is a membership fee attached to joining this sangha ($96/year for "associate" membership, $300/year for "full" membership), and they don't really explain what the different levels entail.
I realize that my next step should be to contact the center and ask them some questions (I'm not even sure if membership is required or optional), but I thought I would check with some more experienced people to see if this is common or not.

TheJourney

Costs are quite common. Personally I think it's unfortunate. Churches don't make you pay, ya know.

StaticToybox

TheJourney wrote: »

Churches don't make you pay, ya know.

No, they just scowl at you when you don't.

Zayl

I thought that "recommended donations" were the norm, but not required payments. Does that mean the monks must maintain day jobs?

Floating_Abu

Valekhai wrote: »

Is it unusual for a sangha to have some sort of regular membership fee attached to becoming a member?
I'm reaching a point in my examination of Buddhism that I think it would be beneficial to start visiting a zen center. Due to my current schedule and the condition of my car, the ones that I would really like to visit are a bit far for me to visit on a regular basis, but there is another one that is very close me. However, according to their website, there is a membership fee attached to joining this sangha ($96/year for "associate" membership, $300/year for "full" membership), and they don't really explain what the different levels entail.
I realize that my next step should be to contact the center and ask them some questions (I'm not even sure if membership is required or optional), but I thought I would check with some more experienced people to see if this is common or not.

Yes, best to contact them, Valekhai

Centers do have costs and associatedly, do have fees. Lighting, water, rent, etc all costs money. And so we have it both ways but it is best to talk to them as they know the situation best.

Good on you for joining and I wish you the best.

Abu

andyrobyn

TheJourney wrote: »

Costs are quite common. Personally I think it's unfortunate. Churches don't make you pay, ya know.

Well established churches often have big bank balances which mean that new members aren't needed to contribute to meet the costs ... although when I was attending Mass our local parish priest had to borrow money from his father to pay the bills rather than ask the Archdioese for money ... some of the parishioners were still putting 10 and 20 cent pieces in the collection plate in the mid 1980's here in Australia. Many people were shocked to hear the priest talk about money and the need to financially support your spiritual home in his homily - it was needed and despite people being shocked soon the parish was self supporting again.

shenpennangwa

TheJourney wrote: »

Costs are quite common. Personally I think it's unfortunate. Churches don't make you pay, ya know.

Churches also usually own property and have a large network of local support.
Unfortunately Buddhist centers dont have this luxury and have a much smaller base of support that requires them to ask for financial support from their lay sangha.
This is by no means a new development in Buddhism by the way. Even in ancient India Buddhist monks were essentially "selling" good karma to the lay community.

Valekhai

Thanks for the responses so far.
I understand that there are significant costs associated with running a center, but I was made slightly wary by what appeared to be a set fee rather than the usual request for donations that I'm used to seeing.
I did send an email to the contact person for this group asking for clarification, and I'll share what I find out once I hear back from her. In the meantime, I was doing some more research and found that the main website for this zen school (it's Kwan Um, btw) has the same membership information and costs listed on that site. To me this suggests that it's probably a voluntary thing.

karmadorje

In my experience, Westerners are quite stingy with donations to Buddhist centers and teachers. If things are left purely voluntary, most centers end up broke.

In the Tibetan tradition, the best is to give large donations for each teaching you receive to make a proper connection with the teaching and be able to practice it without obstacle (the best offering is to then go and put the teaching into practice). However, most Westerners who don't even raise an eyebrow about spending tens of thousands of dollars on a university education can't be bothered to give more than ten dollars for a teaching that leads to the cessation of suffering. That is surely not correct view.

I think that the membership fee sounds very reasonable and they are being very up front about it. I would not be worried by it.

seeker242

Fees are quite normal and they actually do you a favor by giving you the opportunity to practice dana.

Linc

In my limited experience, a membership hasn't been required to attend but are offered.

Jeffrey

With my sangha we have the practice of dana (dhana?) which is sort of a relationship between you and the sangha that generates merit. If you give something to the sangha it is like a commitment to your practice and a bond between you your lineage and your teacher. Each student decides what their dhana will be although it is recommended to give a little bit more than what you deem sensible which is a practice of stretching your generosity. It is definitely not recommended to give so much that you become suffering or financially unsound etc of course.

formermonkJohn

Buddhism taxes the members by free socialism, what you are able to give, with the poorest members only expected to donate three dollars and some incense and candles, and if you're broke they understand, any temple that is requiring you to pay for teachings not based on your income is not following the Buddhas path, or the traditions of Buddhism, westerners have been much less generous, though, and Buddhist temples that cater to westerners feel forced to charge up front, in either case it is not a good sign, try attending a Therevada temple that caters to immigrants, the're much more traditional, and true to the old path, which is not broken by the way.........:):):)

Cinorjer

Churches might call their fees offerings or donations or thithes, but the social pressure to pledge and then give to maintain the church is immense and fund raising is a huge distraction that can consume the entire purpose of the group.

Having a modest upfront yearly fee, as most Buddhist groups now do, frees the group and leadership to focus on the daily task of teaching the Dharma. That doesn't mean you have to buy a ticket to get through the front door, and the people I've met are very understanding about financial hardships. As for what an associate versus full membership gets you? I'm sure the temple will be happy to spell it out, if it's not in the website already. Probably free retreats that an associate has to pay extra to attend, if they choose.

And, Buddhists are notorious for not wanting to donate to the temple. Most of them come from other religious backgrounds, and have sour experiences with Christian churches demanding their money so they'd rather donate directly to the poor.

Jason

As far as my experience goes, fees aren't as common in Theravada groups.

None of the sitting groups I belonged to ever charged fees for membership; although they always accepted donations and some lay-groups did charge fees for retreats (mainly to cover for room and board). This is mostly due to the tradition in Theravada that the Dhamma should be given as a gift for free (which is also the reasons why most books written by monastics are given away for free, the cost of printing being paid via donations by generous lay-followers).

That doesn't mean I think it's necessarily wrong for a group to charge a fee to help with the upkeep of their centre, however. This things can be quite expensive, and sometimes donations might not be enough to keep the lights on.

Floating_Abu

There are differences and for good reasons - without speculating on a public board, I think it is best just to speak to the Center, they are offering a place of practice and we offer our part if we want to go I believe.

Whoknows

karmadorje wrote: »

However, most Westerners who don't even raise an eyebrow about spending tens of thousands of dollars on a university education can't be bothered to give more than ten dollars for a teaching that leads to the cessation of suffering. That is surely not correct view.

Great way of putting it Karma Dorje.

Back to the OP:
The down side is when you are already entrenched in our materialist society then its often hard to put the money aside from feeding the family, paying the mortgage. Even when you leave out all these unnecessary material goods there's always more necessities to spend money on, but most of us, especially before engagement with Buddhism, waste a lot of our money on unimportant things. The important thing to notice is that Dharma centres are also subject to the same restrictions, they also have rent/mortages, accommodation costs, etc. and these must add up significantly and I doubt that they would waste their money or un-needed items.

At the start of the journey I was quite skeptical about Dana and its apparent convenience for spiritual entities. Now, I have a little bit of understanding and see that Dana can lead to more prosperity, or as HHDL puts it selfish-generosity . The important thing with Dana is that it doesn't have to be financial and giving can be a great experience if done freely and with joy. If in doubt start with small things as you never know what will make a big impact on the receiver of the generosity, it could just be a little as a "well done" or "good job".

PS: Very good question Valekhai!

Cheers, WK

Valekhai

Again, thanks for all the input. I just heard back from the representative for this center. She explained things and they operate in the way that I'm used to seeing: visitors are welcome, membership is optional, and donations are greatly appreciated.

Mani

I think that this is one of the many difficulties facing Buddhism in the west. For such as consumer and cash driven society, there still can be a tenancy to be stingy or have feelings strong opinions that "this should be free" and that sort of thing. Whereas, many people have no qualms about paying $20 to go see a movie or something like that, but can be very reserved when it comes to thinking about paying for teachings. Some things I think it is hard to place a value on. I have witnessed first hand in a traditional Buddhist country how the lay practitioners really support those in the Sangha, and this is in an area that is not considered to be a wealthy one, but people give what they can, in both money and time. Perhaps they understand the value and of merits generated a little more than in the west.

On one hand, I think that today people like us in the west have so much merit! We are so lucky that we can get access to teachings and videos online, go to book stores and find the great texts to study, and wait for the next time one of our favorite teacher's roll into town. and we even sometimes "him and hah" about having to travel 45 minutes or an hour to visit a center or receive teachings. For me personally, I have to travel to the other side of the world to see my teacher face to face and receive teachings. I've gone in a heartbeat, without much of a second thought.

One the other hand though, this merit should not be wasted, but should be taken advantage of. For me, reading and hearing stories about some of the past Masters like Marpa, Atisha for example, and the hardships that they had to go through to meet their teachers and receive teachings makes me realize how precious Dharma really is, and how lucky we are.

I can't help but to think that this is all a lesson in itself. We still have so much attachment to these things, and we don't have enough renunciation. As my teacher will sometimes remind us, "don't be so mundane!"

formermonkJohn

when i lived at the cambodian temple the monks used to pick lottery numbers for the faithful, and when they won they were very generous often giving half the winnings to the temple, not millions but multiple thousands, some monks are known for picking numbers that on average win, not lose like random playing, in either case if youre well off be generous, if youre not noone should be hounding you for donations. one of the problems for western temples is when wealthy members think there doing enough by paying the same fees as everyone else

buddhajunkie

The membership "fee" could be optional. A sangha nearby does something like that, where different membership levels gets you discounts on retreats as well as t-shirts and stuff.

$96 isn't bad if the sangha meets weekly, especially if they have a payment plan.

Kundo

[quote=TheJourney;141306]Churches don't make you pay, ya know.[/quote]

No, they just scowl at you when you don't.

:bowdown:

Disney

Again, thanks for all the input. I just heard back from the representative for this center. She explained things and they operate in the way that I'm used to seeing: visitors are welcome, membership is optional, and donations are greatly appreciated.

This is the usual good practice.
Donation and joining membership within one's financial ability are also good practice :cool:

MindGate

The Zendo which I want to join only asks that you donate whatever you can. In fact, if you're poor, you don't have to pay a dime.