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Forgive..And Forget?
Argon.Aid
Veteran
What I am going to post now may seem insignificant.
Remember how people always uphold the policy of forgive and forget.But this set me thinking,does forget means we forget our wrong doings..Is it a minor flaw in the saying..or just over sensitivity on my part..?
Lets use the analogy of a teacher scolding a student
A teacher scolds a student..He exhibit the policy of forgive and forget,with the intention of making the student to start afresh.
But at the same time,its confirmed that the teacher would not want the student to forget his mistake.
Haha..What happen to the policy of Forgive and Forget..?
Remember how people always uphold the policy of forgive and forget.But this set me thinking,does forget means we forget our wrong doings..Is it a minor flaw in the saying..or just over sensitivity on my part..?
Lets use the analogy of a teacher scolding a student
A teacher scolds a student..He exhibit the policy of forgive and forget,with the intention of making the student to start afresh.
But at the same time,its confirmed that the teacher would not want the student to forget his mistake.
Haha..What happen to the policy of Forgive and Forget..?
0
Comments
A very good question, Argon! Lord Russell of Liverpool, who worked on the post-WW2 Japanese war-crimes trials, said: "We must forgive but never forget."
It is also, I submit, a futile exercise to try and forget anything: try it for yourself! The important thing is the forgiveness. It is not necessary to forget anything for there to be a new start and, as you say, it may be essential to remember in order to do better next time.
It is the saying which is at fault: too glib.
I've also heard statements like "dislike the act, not the person". As in, the act is just something the person did - it doesn't define the person.
But on the flip side, an action does define a person, because how do we know a person for what they are? By their actions.
We also hear statements made here that when we sit down and write up all the things that make up "us" - those things really aren't us. We are something different. But, I believe we can be summed up through the history of our actions.
If you steal - you're a thief.
If you want to steal, but don't - you're not a thief. You haven't done the things that would define you as such. Even though you would like to, you've shown restraint and not done those acts. I guess you could say that at a mental level, if you want to steal - have the desire to steal - you're a thief. But, in my mind, if you haven't done the act - you can't be summed up as or labelled as a thief.
And I'm not talking about the onesy twosy stealing of candy-bars as a child. I'm talking about taking things from others in a wrong way or in a way that will hurt others.
So, you know someone is inclined to steal or take from you and has in the past. Can you forgive them? Sure. You may know the circumstances which drove them to do these things - but their actions have either caused you hurt, pain, loss, etc. Forgive them, but don't forget lest it happen again.
Any of this make sense?
-bf
So I guess the saing should be Forgive but you better not forget what you did.Thus it will be kept as a lesson,a harsh lesson in our memory.Anyway..even i f we try to forget,I bet if another incident of the same context were to happen again,The memory will be broguht out again.
Forgive? Yes
Forget? Maybe Not.
Forgive - if that is what you truly wish to do.
And then if you've forgiven, to not hold the act against the person, throw it up in their face maliciously or in anger.
Recognize that it happened - and move on.
Unless you just want to punish the person for making a mistake.
Or if it keeps happening - maybe something should change because you're just becoming an enabler.
-bf
There are different types of forgiveness, as highlighted above, by BF (thanks for that....
...So if we are to forgive someone, it is only sometimes appropriate to do so on a Practical level, but it is ALWAYS appropriate to do so on a Spiritual level. The murderer, thief, drunken driver must be seen to be accountable socially for their actions. "Social Forgiveness" in this case, would be inappropriate and let him/her off the hook.
However, I firmly believe that Forgiveness Spiritually, is something we need to develop not only for the perpetrator, but also for ourselves. And Unconditional Love and Universal Compassion are given whether the recipient asks for it or not, or whether they are aware of it or not.
In order to forgive someone, we must also release ourselves from the burden of carrying the resentment, the anger and the hatred that NOT forgiving can engender.
So, for me, Forgiveness is a two-way thing: It is for the benefit of the person's Emotional Well-being that we find Forgiveness in our hearts - and it is for the Benefit of our own Progress, that we nurture this ability to Forgive.
Just my take on it, FWIW.....
For instance, let's say someone hurts you due to being an alcoholic or drug addict. Now, it's easy to recognize and accept their limitations and forgive them for hurting you due to those limitations. However, forgiving does not mean allowing or forgetting what they have done to you. Also, are they sorry for what they have done? Are they trying to change so that it doesn't happen again? Have they even admitted they have a problem? And if so, are they in the process of overcoming their addictions?
If not, it's important to recognize where they are at in life so that you are not hurt again by their limitations. If they have received help and are in the process of overcoming their addictions, it still may take some time before you are able to forget what has occurred with them in the past. In other words, they are going to have to earn your trust again, and it may take quite a few positive experiences before the negative is forgotten. That's especially true in cases involving adultery. But if both people are committed to change and growth, I do believe it can be done. Although it really depends on the people involved and how committed they are to change.
So I think you can forgive someone their weaknesses and limitations, but also set firm boundaries about what you will and will not accept in your life by not forgetting where they are at in their development. That way, you show them unconditional love by accepting their limitations, and yet also love yourself unconditionally by setting firm boundaries with them, while remaining open to change.
Anyway, that's what has worked for me over the years.
This phrase is inevitably used about unpleasant situations - but those are there for us to learn from - if we forget we can't learn from them.
As in,how can learn from his mistakes if he did not even remember what he did wrong before..lol
"May your faith in yourself remain unwavering"
-Ar.Aid
But, true forgiveness should mean that you harbor no ill-will or ill-thoughts against them for the thing they did.
-bf
But at least if we have truly forgiven someone who has done something horrendous to us, then we can remember the incident without trawling up all the rage or anger or hurt that went with the original act. We can remember it calmly and regard it as a lesson and remember also what we learned from it.
-bf
My father suffers from mental illness. At times growing up, he would go into these rages that terrified us as kids. We didn't know when it was going to happen but they happened more frequently the older we got. He would become physically abusive while in these rages. I remember one particularly where he beat my siblings and I for about 30 minutes. I can still hear him exhausted and breathing hard when he was done. He was 30 and I was 5 years old.
Needless to say, the abuse didn't stop for a long time, and the verbal abuse didn't stop until I was 30. I finally got strong enough to stand up to him about it then. It did leave a lot of anger, resentment, fear, and guilt with me. It was a major contributing factor to my life long struggle with depression.
The good news now is that I worked through most of this. I continue to work through things as they come up. Recovering from childhood abuse isn't a one time event but more of a long process. I have forgiven my father for what he has done. I don't trust him though. Sure, I have polite conversation with him, but that is it. I wouldn't open up to him. I told him I was practicing Buddhism as he is an Atheist and sorry that I did. He made a few smart remarks about it and I confronted him.
I can't forget what happened. I don't want to as it made "me" what "I" am, whatever that is. But I can understand when other people can't break free from the abuse they are sustaining now. And I sure can help them when they are ready to deal with it.
In some cases, yes.
But I wouldn't pet him.
-bf
If someone were to do something bad to us and we forgive him,it is obvious that we have to forget the incident so as to maintain a proper relationship with them.Between two parties,the term forgive and forget can only apply to one party,that is the victim,not the culprit.
"May your faith in your religion and yourself remain unwavering"
-Ar.Aid
From personal experience, it is difficult to forget heinous things that happens to you. I would love to forget the years of abuse, but it isn't possible. But I can choose to live a healthy life and take care of myself now. Forgiveness is part of that. Holding on to that much hate warps the personality and messes up your karma. You act in unkind and unloving ways without realizing it. Since I've dealt with the abuse, I've grown so much and can see where I am acting in unkind ways to people. I'm also learning not to do them at all.
It is on the shoulders of the victim. I thought that stunk when a therapist told me that. It took a long time for me to accept that. Actually, it took near suicide before I would forgive my father. I decided that if I killed myself, he won. But what I've found out is that it wasn't a matter of me beating him. It was a matter of stopping the self torment that was driving me insane. I'm glad I forgave him. But to be honest, I don't think I will ever really trust him.
So Forgiving and Forgetting does not really means that your relationship with that person is fully reconciled.We can only conclude that doing something bad,even small or big,will have repurcussions that will affect our principles and life.
The issue of forgetting and forgiving all comes down to our actions.
-Ar.Aid
It's not about letting others off the hook, It's about letting yourself off the hook, and that you are simply not going to let this rule and dominate your life or hang around your neck, O N E - M O R E - D A Y.
Let them bear the burden of responsibility. You don't have to. And even if they refuse to, or don't even see it, the most important thing is to just get out of the shackles and liberate yourself.
Because as Bob Marley said, nobody but you can free you from the Slavery of your Mind.
You might never forget. But by forgiving, you rise above it. Waaaaaay above it.
You don't end up by looking at the clouds and seeing the silver lining.
Because you're walking on them.
If you have a headache and then break your leg, you forget the headache. I've found that despite some fairly awful things happening or being done to me in my life, as Fede said, I have HAD TO forgive for the sake of my own sanity.
Only one example - If I had kept on reliving the rape in my head all the time I would have gone mental (and don't think I didn't for a while) but eventually (years not months) I had to say "It happened, get over it" quite brutally to myself. Who was suffering? Him? No, he probably never even thought about it. Me. Yes, I was putting myself through all the negative emotions time and time again and making myself ill through it.
So I said - OK, he's a sickie, I'm OK, I don't know what made him do it but what a poor sick excuse for a man that he has to do that. Am I REALLY hurt by it or am I hurting myself by keeping it alive? No - I'm fine. I'm a big girl and know better than to get myself into that kind of sitch again.
I could meet him in the street tomorrow - I wouldn't shake hands but I wouldn't fall apart either. All those bad feelings are gone - only way to go.
The part about forgiveness freeing both people involved is what I learned long ago. It's the only thing that can give the person who hurt you the space to change.
Two comments here, from my personal perspective:
Even though we've lumped the two words ("Forgive and Forget") into one phrase - they go together so poetically - they shouldn't be taken as a single factor or entity. The two terms require two quite different processes. One entails releasing an Emotional function, and working on a Psychological level, to release and liberate oneself from a specific issue; the other is a physical reality and mechanical function of the brain. It's what it does. It's what we train it to do. We have often said that you can't unlearn something. And indeed, barring accident, you can't. It's lodged and logged.
Naturally, the brain stores away unwanted and unnecessary information in it's Subconscious (Mental filing cabinet) which is deemed accessible through hypnotism.
In fact, emotionally damaging and negative memories can be encouraged to enter and be stored in the subconscious, in the same way, although this is a more prolonged and complex process....
But to be able to forget something, as a simple follow-on process of Forgiving, I would say is Impossible.
At this juncture, forgive me if I disagree with you on your first comment Brigid, but you cannot take the degree of the hurt into account. It's a bit in the same vein as " 'Do' or 'Don't' - there is no 'Try'.
because look at it the other way... The less you are able to forgive, the more you are giving these "transgressions" your FULL permission and endorsement to continue influencing and damaging your life. It hurt a lot, I can't forgive, so I can be in pain a lot; it hurt a little bit, I can't forgive, so I'll continue hurting a little bit.
Who would willingly keep whanging themselves over the head with a frying pan? or doing this:banghead: ? It's insane! And so wonderful when it stops - !!
It truly is about releasing yourself first - fully, completely and entirely- from giving it permission to hurt you. Only when you can visualise the 'offender' sitting in a chair infront of you, and you really just want to hug that person and say it's over - can you say that you yourself, have really Forgiven.
The problem is when it's not over. I know in my own personal experience with my mother, as long as she remained toxic, it was not safe to be around her. That did not mean I couldn't forgive her by recognizing and accepting her limitations, but it did mean that I shouldn't forget the fact that she had not changed, because she was very likely to repeat the behavior.
I do believe that one can forget to a certain degree. It might be very tough in cases of rape or adultery, but I do think, given the proper circumstances, that it is possible. But don't get me wrong ... it would take a very long time and many positive experiences in order to make the negative experience fade from memory. And I don't believe it's ever completely forgotten, but I do believe it can be lessened to such a degree that one doesn't think about it anymore. But again, enough positive experiences would be needed to outweigh the negative in order for that to happen, and that takes time. That is why some couples never make it past incidents of adultery. Sometimes the trust is never regained. But it is something that therapists recommend that couples try if they are willing and committed to each other and their relationship.
OF COURSE IT'S FLAMING POSSIBLE IN THE CASE OF RAPE!!!!!! I HAVE JUST GIVEN YOU A CONCRETE EXAMPLE FROM MY OWN LIFE, NOT IMAGINED FROM SOME VIEWPOINT WHERE EVERYTHING NECESSARY WAS LEARNED LONG AGO
READ THE POSTS YOU ARE REPLYING TO PLEASE[/SIZE]
About half an hour later, the young monk could no longer contain himself. "I don't understand! I don't understand!" he said: "We are celibate monks; sworn to never even think of, let alone touch the opposite sex. Yet you picked up that women and carried her..."
The old monk replied: "Are you still carrying that women around? I put her down half an hour ago."
I wasn't replying to your post, Knitwitch. I was replying to Fede's post, and that's why I quoted her in my post. Also, I was referring to the issue of "forgetting," and I think your post had to do with "forgiving," for the most part. Obviously, you haven't forgotten the rape, but from what you posted, you have most certainly forgiven your rapist. Unless I misunderstood what you wrote?
Forgotten? No of course not - there are many people I would LOVE to forget at the moment, but that person isn't one of them.
As I already explained, Knitwitch, I was responding to Fede's post. And again, I only speculated on the ability to "forget," not the ability to "forgive." Sorry for any confusion.
It's over when YOU decide it is, not the other person.
Which part are you referring to, Fede? The ability to forgive or forget? Because they do not necessarily go together.
Perhaps I should rephrase my earlier post. There seems to have been a misunderstanding due to its lack of clarity.
What I meant to say was in some circumstances I find it easy not only to forgive a wrongdoing but also to forget it. For example, I'm sure there have been hundreds of occasions when my siblings have hurt me in small ways; lied to me, insulted me, were mean to me etc. as siblings do. I forgave them these small hurts long ago and have also forgotten the details of these hurts long ago. Because they were minor in nature they were not difficult to forgive and with the passage of time I have naturally forgotten the details of what happened. So I'm unclear on what you mean, Fede, when you say: There have also been times when much larger hurts have been inflicted on me, as is the case with everyone, I imagine. These are much more difficult to forget and it may not be wise to forget them if there is any likelihood of them happening again. As Buddhafoot pointed out: We all seem to agree on this point.
Forgiving them is, of course, a very healthy if not essential thing to do for both parties, another point on which we all agree. But if I'm still not completely there regarding a personal family issue, it only means that I'm human, not that I'm insane. I'm working on getting to a place where I can fully forgive. The only thing I said in my post was: My only point was that when we haven't reached a place of full forgiveness the issue remains clear in our memory. I never meant to give the false impression that I was somehow still torturing myself with it. I haven't really thought about the issue in years. If I do bring it to mind on the odd occasion, for example for the purpose of this thread, the memories of it are still quite clear. I didn't mean to give the impression that the emotions of it were still clear, just the circumstances. And those are clear for a very good reason; to prevent it from recurring. But I'm certainly not living in the way you describe, Fede: I'm not giving anything my "FULL permission and endorsement to continue influencing and damaging (my) life." Nor am I willingly whanging myself over the head with a frying pan. I'm afraid I don't understand how you arrived at this drastic impression of me. Please, Fede, don't worry. I'm not banging my head against any walls and I'm sorry if I gave you that impression, because if I did, it's a very false one. I probably didn't put as much thought into my first post as I should have. I'll try to be more clear next time. O.K?
Love,
Brigid
Hang on Brigid....
I think I'm guilty of that too.... When I used the term "you"... it was really intended in the generic sense as opposed to the personal you-yourself sense.... I should have tried to make that clearer, so don't take it personally. English is difficult that wazy... the useful term in such cases, is 'one' but then one starts to sound like a member of the Royal Family, and one can get right up one's nose doing that....! I could have used the term 'we' but that too sounds frightfully Royal.. rather like our old Tory Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, when she announced to the press: "WE are a grandmother" - !!
SATORI:
Yes, I know they don't go together - hence my post!!
I have heard it thus described:
"If you (one!) believe(s) that you have completely forgiven somebody, but could not face hugging them and telling them that as far as you're concerned, whatever is still happening, you feel no animosity toward them, then you have not forgiven. You can by all means carry on rejecting what they do, but to truly be at peace with yourself, you cannot hold it gainst them personally, and still feel ok. Hate the Sin, but not the Sinner".
I personally believe this must be one of the most difficult things to accomplish. But the little Tibetan monk who after 14 years of constant persistent torture in a prison in Tibet, who said that throughout his incarceration, his biggest fear was of losing his compassion for the Chinese, just about summed up just what it means, for me. I still get shivers when i read about it.
You know, a few years ago I would have felt that kind of compassion was way beyond me. I would have thought I just wasn't capable of it. But today, I feel like I can get there. Following this path has profoundly changed me. Not overnight, but when I look back it's really clear that I'm a very different person than I was before I really started to practice.
I'm so unbelievably grateful to have heard the Dharma and been given the opportunity to learn about and practice it. And it's this very issue that has to be the greatest test of all.
And even though I don't allude to Christianity very often, it's the issue of forgiveness that really makes me think of Jesus. According to the writers of the Gospels, Jesus said one thing that took precedence over everything else, which was to love your enemy as yourself. No different from what the Buddha had said, but I heard it "from" Jesus first and it's never, ever left my mind. I've been thinking about it, and measuring my ability to do it my whole life. It's the ultimate challenge.
But Jesus never told us HOW to do it. He just told us to do it. Buddhism actually shows us the steps to take to get there. And now that I'm following those steps, the concept of finding love in my heart for those I find the most difficult to love and forgive is no longer just an unattainable idea but an actual reality. When I've been able to truly do it, it's the closest I've ever come to pure freedom. As you said, Fede, it's pure relief, isn't it?
But I still struggle sometimes, so I know I have more work to do. And that's O.K. because I'm starting to really love the journey and the process. I'm learning to have more patience with, and compassion for, myself. I understand how precious the opportunity is to be born a human on earth and I'm not going to waste any more time. It's becoming automatic now to watch everything I think, say and do. I enjoy this process more than anything else in the world. Oh, blah, blah, blah! I'm talking too much. Sorry. I just spent the day reading a bunch of the Suttas that Jason provided so I'm all hyped up. I even read about the 31 planes of existence, something I was too scared to do just six or seven months ago. Ah, progress. But don't worry. I won't turn into a Buddha freak, I promise. LOL!
O.K. Enough blather for today.
Brigid
Thanks, Fede. I thought you were talking about "forgiving," as opposed to "forgetting," but when you posted it again, I wasn't sure.
I completely agree that when you forgive someone, you should be able to hug them and tell them so.
When I referred to the fact that it was not always "over," I was only addressing the issue of "forgetting," not "forgiving," in relation to abuse. For instance, if someone is still trying to hit you and beat you up, then you might want to keep your distance until they have changed. However, in the meantime, you can certainly forgive them for being abusive. And if you truly forgive them, you should be able to say that to their face and mean it.
I also remember the Dalai Lama saying that the Tibetans pray for China as well as themselves, because they understand the ramifications of the karma the Chinese government has created for itself in persecuting the Tibetan people. That's a very forgiving and compassionate viewpoint. Of course, the Dalai Lama and others remain in exile and are not ignorant to the fact that the Chinese government is still dangerous for them to be around. In other words, they have forgiven but not forgotten.
So, I think "a hug" is a bit unrealistic. Though I like hugs, can I treat that person with dignity and respect seems to be more important. I saw many people that could hug each other on Sunday morning and really couldn't stand each other the rest of the week.
Culprit:"I am really aorry"
Victim:"Na..its ok..Lets just forget everything ok?"
SO they go on their own life,the culprit happy to be let off the hook while the victim still keeps it in his mind.Is it just an attempt to carry on life normally and avoid making a mountain out of molehill?
(Assuming that the above scenario does not apply to extreme cases!)
Please don't misunderstand. I use the abuse as an example as it was such a major part of my life. It was the first time I thought of it in a while actually. I use it to show that forgiveness is possible even in the most extreme situations.
and my sins shall be whiter than the whitewash on the walls."