Soul and buddhism?

compassion

Mmm, i was wondering about this for a long time (:

Does the concept of a "soul" exist in buddhism thought?

Or is it just somewhat of an "awareness"?
Eg.
I'm born as a human, so i'm here. (with no other thought like there's some substance called a spirit/soul and i'm here attached to this physical body).


Is reality an "illusion"?
An illusion that keeps us humans desiring for more illusions that are never really there?

ShiftPlusOne

I am not 100% sure, but I don't think there is a 'soul' in Buddhism... in fact I think it teaches that there isn't one.

There are many people who latch to this "everything is an illusion" idea, but I don't think it has much of a practical use.

compassion

thanks for the reply (:

well imo i think it can be of use in understanding the concept of reincarnation.

like we are all "viewers" of a reality, and depending on our actions and thoughts we experience different realities (hence karma)

i was thinking that "nothingness" would also apply in this context, since form is emptiness and emptiness is form, but i may be wrong

TheJourney

reality is an illusion. Don't forget the reality part, though.

Jeffrey

depends what you mean by a soul

upalabhava

In some schools of Buddhism the "thing" that lasts through death is awareness.

The subtlest level of mental activity (mind), which continues with no beginning and no end, without any break, even during death and even into Buddhahood. It is individual and constitutes the mental continuum of each being. It is naturally free of conceptual cognition, the appearance-making of true existence, and grasping for true existence, since it is more subtle than the grosser levels of mental activity with which these occur. It has nothing to do with "light."

compassion

upalabhava wrote: »

In some schools of Buddhism the "thing" that lasts through death is awareness.

The subtlest level of mental activity (mind), which continues with no beginning and no end, without any break, even during death and even into Buddhahood. It is individual and constitutes the mental continuum of each being. It is naturally free of conceptual cognition, the appearance-making of true existence, and grasping for true existence, since it is more subtle than the grosser levels of mental activity with which these occur. It has nothing to do with "light."

thank you, that somehow answered my thoughts. (:

hmm so if we use this awareness to see and perceive the world around us as impermanent, does this mean that awareness itself is permanent?


Jeffrey: I meant it as a "tangible" thing that floats around, you know how they fly out of bodies when you die or something.

TheJourney: Yes there certainly is, thank you. (:

The_Fruit_Punch_Wiza

compassion wrote: »

Mmm, i was wondering about this for a long time (:

Does the concept of a "soul" exist in buddhism thought?

Or is it just somewhat of an "awareness"?
Eg.
I'm born as a human, so i'm here. (with no other thought like there's some substance called a spirit/soul and i'm here attached to this physical body).


Is reality an "illusion"?
An illusion that keeps us humans desiring for more illusions that are never really there?

There is no soul. I'm 100% sure.

What we think of a soul is merely a collection of 5 skandhas. These skandhas are "emotion", "sensation", "perception", "consciousness", and "form". Without these things what are you left with?

andyrobyn

The_Fruit_Punch_Wizard wrote: »

There is no soul. I'm 100% sure.

What we think of a soul is merely a collection of 5 skandhas. These skandhas are "emotion", "sensation", "perception", "consciousness", and "form". Without these things what are you left with?

Christians would say the soul transcends what we are able to sense.
As Saint Augustine explained ... “I do not know in order to believe; I believe in order to know.”

The_Fruit_Punch_Wiza

andyrobyn wrote: »

Christians would say the soul transcends what we are able to sense.
As Saint Augustine explained ... “I do not know in order to believe; I believe in order to know.”

I am a Theravada Buddhist, not a Christian, but let's test your theory.

What does your soul look like?

What does it feel?

How does it feel?

Where is it?

What is it?

We can't even find a self!

Make a thorough investigation of your own mind and body and see if you can find any self there that is not merely a mental impression. What is this, apart from different personal opinions regarding the so-called self?

When we say, "I am happy" who or what is happy? If it is the feeling that is happy is the feeling the self? Then moments later, we may be sad. Where has that happy self gone? If we investigate, we can find only constantly changing mind and matter. No self can be found anywhere.

As a conclusion, I can say I don't think it exists.

If there is no self, what is a soul?

I do not totally deny the existence of a personality in an empirical sense. This just shows that it does not exist in an ultimate sense. It includes the mental and physical elements as well. The karmic force of each individual binds the elements together. This uninterrupted flux or continuity of psycho-physical phenomenon, which is conditioned by karma, is not limited only to the present life, but having its source in the beginningless past and its continuation in the future which is the Buddhist substitute for the permanent ego or the immortal soul of other religions so to speak.

andyrobyn

My point was that what we know is affected by what we believe ... not the other way around.

The_Fruit_Punch_Wiza

andyrobyn wrote: »

My point was that what we know is affected by what we believe ... not the other way around.

Granted, but belief is cheap. Upon examining beliefs, one should consider whether they actually work or even if they do work at all.

upalabhava

compassion wrote: »

hmm so if we use this awareness to see and perceive the world around us as impermanent, does this mean that awareness itself is permanent?

See, Static and Nonstatic Phenomena

What is impermanent is anything that has arisen due to causes and conditions. This is because once the conditions for its existence are removed, the thing so conditioned will come to an end. Impermanent things change from moment to moment, and cause to be such things called effects.

There are also things that can be called permanent. Absurdities are, strangely enough, permanent. The hair of a tortoise and a rabbit's horn remain the same always. That is, they remain permanently impossible ways of existing. Emptiness or voidness is another commonly listed permanent phenomenon.

Awareness and emptiness are often used synonymously.

So, yes, at least for systems other than the Theravada, I believe, we can view awareness as being a permanent phenomena. In fact, in systems such as the Mahamudra, every single thing in the multiverse bears the seal, the literal depression in its form, of the dharmakaya, of buddha-nature, of primordial awareness.

andyrobyn

The_Fruit_Punch_Wizard wrote: »

Granted, but belief is cheap. Upon examining beliefs, one should consider whether they actually work or even if they do work at all.

Agreed ... reminds me of the discussions I had in my 20's - late night and after lots of eating and drinking - about whether God created man or man created God - even then, what it comes / came down to for me was how our beliefs translate into actions - towards ourselves and others

Ch-an_noob

The best way to described it is the 8th consciousness "Alaya consciousness" which carries our Karma after death. Which determines which realm we migrate to and our rebirth in the human realm.

deepak

The best way to described it is the 8th consciousness "Alaya consciousness" which carries our Karma after death. Which determines which realm we migrate to and our rebirth in the human realm.

The Eighth Consciousness is a term what some people call the soul. Although Buddhism always says that there is no soul, what it means is that there is no absolute soul.So what Buddhism refers to as the Eighth Consciousness is what many non-Buddhist would say is their soul.In particular, this Eighth Consciousness survives the death of the body and along with its life energy departs for some other place.When it sees the new father and mother, it mixes with their sperm and ovum and becomes a new person.

The source of defilement is within our Eighth Consciousness.Not only the results of our deeds in one lifetime,but the effects of many lifetimes are stored there.They only wait for certain conditions for them to grow up again, blossom again and produce new fruit.If you respond with some defiled act, the seeds will hurt you in the future.This cycle will continue until you yourself put an end to it.Neither Buddha nor any God can remove the source of defilement from your Eighth Consciousness.That is why it is said that you create yourself.You may create yourself as a pig, a dog, a God or even a Buddha.It all depends on your self-exertion.

Mountains

Does the concept of a "soul" exist in buddhism thought?

My understanding is that in other religions, the "soul" is seen as the true "self". It is separate and apart from the physical body, but it encompasses one's "being" or personality. In other words, the "I" in the concept of "me" *is* my soul. When my soul goes to heaven or hell, it's actually *me* as I am right now, albeit in spiritual form, that goes to heaven or hell.

Buddhism does not ascribe to that view, since Buddhism denies the existence of self. Not to mention heaven and hell...

compassionate_warrior

The Eighth Consciousness is a term what some people call the soul. Although Buddhism always says that there is no soul, what it means is that there is no absolute soul.So what Buddhism refers to as the Eighth Consciousness is what many non-Buddhist would say is their soul.In particular, this Eighth Consciousness survives the death of the body and along with its life energy departs for some other place.When it sees the new father and mother, it mixes with their sperm and ovum and becomes a new person.

This is fascinating, deepak. What is the source of this information? What about the Vajrayana teachings that there's no soul, but that "mind" or "consciousness" is what survives death of the body--do you see that as just a semantic issue?

zidangus

I thought there were just six consciousnesses as described by the Theravada texts. Just wondering if the Buddha taught the concept of the Eighth Consciousness, can't find any teachings of it except in the Abhidharma teachings, which itself has questions about when some of these teachings were written, with scholars believing that some of these teachings surfaced after the Buddha around the third century BCE. Hence, it is widely thought that a lot of the Abhidhamma teachings do not represent the words of the Buddha, but represent disciples and great scholars of the time. Anyway if anyone can find any other teachings from Buddha please share the link.

Metta to all sentient beings

Cloud

The problem is all the seeking and wanting involved in some component that you can call "I" that is transferring from one body to the next. The Buddha taught that consciousness like everything else arises dependent on conditions, and strongly rebuked a monk that had such a view that consciousness transmigrates between lives.

Read more of the following at http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm :

Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

"Sati, what is that consciousness?"

"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."

"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

Bolded emphasis is mine. It seems to cling to such a view is no good at all!

It's the very fact that it's our clinging to existence, an act of self-preservation, to be worrying about future lives instead of working on eliminating suffering now. It leads to things such as having a fear of Nirvana, thinking it means the end of our existence. It doesn't! All Nirvana means is seeing things with complete clarity, being unfettered from all craving born of ignorance, being at peace.

Everything we are came from other things, and will become new things in the future. It's matter in flux, which through conditioning gives rise to body and mind, consciousness and experience. None of it belongs to us, or is any kind of permanent/unchanging self. These are just thoughts we have because we cling to life in fear and ignorance.

Follow the Noble Eightfold Path and see the true way of things, dropping the ignorance in favor of wisdom, and that fear goes away. Even knowing that you will die, you will not be afraid, because you will see that you were never truly born. That's the only true way to find peace.

compassionate_warrior

I thought there were just six consciousnesses as described by the Theravada texts. Just wondering if the Buddha taught the concept of the Eighth Consciousness, can't find any teachings of it except in the Abhidharma teachings, which itself has questions about when some of these teachings were written, with scholars believing that some of these teachings surfaced after the Buddha around the third century BCE. Hence, it is widely thought that a lot of the Abhidhamma teachings do not represent the words of the Buddha, but represent disciples and great scholars of the time. Anyway if anyone can find any other teachings from Buddha please share the link.

Metta to all sentient beings

Well, according to the info I was able to find on the schism that lead to the evolution of northern and southern Buddhism, the validity of the Abidharma teachings was one of the issues that caused the split. Those who eventually became Mahayanists accepted those teachings, and those who later became Hinayana (and ultimately, Theravadan) didn't. Ch'an Noob, who first posted about the 8th Consciousness, above, follows Ch'an Buddhism. Still waiting to hear from deepak.