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Releasing the fetter of conceit
The_Fruit_Punch_Wiza
Veteran
What is a method of contemplation you use to release any feelings of conceit or arrogance from your mind?
Please tell me the situation, what you did, and how it worked.
Please tell me the situation, what you did, and how it worked.
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There is a practice of "Exchangeing yourself with others" that I like to use. I am not qualifired to teach it, I would ask your Lama for more information about it.
I look at pictures of myself, from 5/10/20+ years ago, and think, 'I am not that person any more'.
The skin has more wrinkles, the hair is beginning to go grey, the body has more ailments, and less flexibility.
The form I inhabit is growing older by the day.
I'm just a lump of flesh, blood and bones.
What is there for me to be conceited or arrogant, about?
It works for pain as well.
Close your eyes, and imagine the form in which the feeling takes.
Where exactly does this feeling originate from within you?
The lungs? The heart? The diaphragm? Outside of you?
How does it feel like?
Is it round? Cubic? Maybe irregularly shaped? How so?
What texture does it have?
How large is it?
Small? Pinsized? Gargantuan? Extremely enormous? Body-sized?
Once you have located the feeling as such, try to think of it as pure energy.
The book describes it as stripping off the "label" that you have placed on it.
For example, energy that you perceive as anger, will be labelled as anger.
Energy that you perceive as jealousy or pride, will be labelled as jealousy or pride.
Once the label on that energy is removed, the whole meaning given to that energy is removed and it just feels like pure energy. You can then place a new label on it. Happiness? Bliss? Love? Compassion?
Haha, I use it when I occasionally get such feelings, but the best method is still to nip it before the bud even grows out through continuous meditation. (:
At times, when I feel like material possessions just aren't permanent, the feeling of conceit just disappears altogether.
Is it proudness?????? If so, I would think about others better than myself in things....
If it is about your idea/ sticking to what you are doing, I would suggest realising the size of the world(quite big)... And then, you could think why there are people doing something which you think baseless? So they must have their own reason... Learn it - and if it does not appeal to you, just say so to yourself and continue...
BTW, this is not a matter of releasing the phenomenon from your mind. That's setting up a duality, which will lead to a struggle.
When you let go of being the center of your universe, of being separate from others, and of exerting control rather than experiencing karma and its fruits... well, it's a good start.
I often catch myself making judgments about other people. One time I caught myself looking at an overweight person and a familiar (negative, judgemental) train of thought started up. So I told myself - imagine yourself in that person's skin. Right away I became aware of other peoples' negative thoughts, frustrations and difficulties related to managing a large body etc.
It was a useful little exercise. Now when I catch myself with negative/superior thoughts about other people I'm more likely to answer myself with - "And why do I think I'm so much better than them?" Its become more of an "oops!" moment.
So maybe don't worry about it if you have a bit of conceit. Of course, less is always better. Good luck!
Oh, here's a table showing what fetters are abandoned at each stage.
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% burlywood; color: white; letter-spacing: 1pt;"><td style="padding: 1pt; border-width: 0pt 1pt; border-style: none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color white -moz-use-text-color darkslategray;">stage's
"fruit"<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup>
</td> <td colspan="2" style="padding: 1pt; border: 0pt none;"> abandoned
fetters
</td> <td style="padding: 1pt 5pt; border-width: 0pt 1pt; border-style: none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray -moz-use-text-color white;"> rebirth(s)
until suffering's end
</td> </tr> <tr style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% wheat;"> <td style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; border: 1px solid darkslategray; padding: 0pt 3pt;"> stream-enterer
</td> <td rowspan="2" style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% wheat; border-width: 1px 0pt; border-style: solid none; border-color: darkslategray -moz-use-text-color; text-align: left; padding: 0pt 0pt 0pt 8pt;"> 1. identity view
2. doubt
3. ritual attachment
</td> <td rowspan="3" style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% cornsilk; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid solid solid dashed; border-color: darkslategray darkslategray darkslategray dimgray; padding: 1em;"> lower
fetters
</td> <td style="border-width: 1px 1px 1px 0pt; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: darkslategray darkslategray darkslategray -moz-use-text-color; line-height: 100%; padding: 0pt 3pt;"> up to seven more times as
a human or in a heaven
</td> </tr> <tr style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% wheat;"> <td style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; border-width: 0pt 1px 1px; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray darkslategray; padding-left: 3pt; padding-right: 3pt;"> once-returner<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3]</sup>
</td> <td style="border-width: 0pt 1px 1px 0pt; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray darkslategray -moz-use-text-color; line-height: 100%; padding: 0pt 3pt;"> once more as
a human
</td> </tr> <tr style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% cornsilk;"> <td style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; border-width: 0pt 1px 1px; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray darkslategray;"> non-returner
</td> <td style="border-width: 0pt 0pt 1px; border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color darkslategray; text-align: left; padding: 0pt 0pt 0pt 8pt;"> 4. sensual desire
5. ill will
</td> <td style="border-width: 0pt 1px 1px 0pt; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray darkslategray -moz-use-text-color; line-height: 100%; padding: 0pt 3pt;"> once more in
a pure abode
</td> </tr> <tr style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% lemonchiffon;"> <td style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; border-width: 0pt 1px; border-style: none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray; padding: 1em;"> arahant
</td> <td style="border: 0pt none; text-align: left; padding: 3pt 8pt;"> 6. material-rebirth lust
7. immaterial-rebirth lust
8. conceit
9. restlessness
10. ignorance
</td> <td style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; border-width: 0pt 1px; border-style: none solid none dashed; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray; padding: 1em;"> higher
fetters
</td> <td style="border-width: 0pt 1px 0pt 0pt; border-style: none solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color darkslategray -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;"> none
</td></tr></tbody></table>
I've never felt superior to others, just different. But on a parallel track, I have resented others for what I either took as injuries or received as gestures of ill-will.
(Now, assume that the nature we all partake of is essentially divine. Next try to visualize that divine essence in terms of heat- or fire-energy. Going deeper, try to think how any resentment or haughty disregard of others might affect those sparks of the divine in us... stop... stop...
Now might you perhaps see an extra energy being expended in an unhealthy direction? A surge closing valves that should be open to the Day-Light now covers up the divine sparks. Then the divine sparks begin to smolder in the ensuing damp, dismissing the divine light of true, spontaneous Joy and Awe into nothingness. Next, one settles into a despondency and perhaps even a devilish darkness that lashes out at things, real or imagined. )
After the inner work others have discussed above is underway, you have to perform some work outside yourself, too, in order to proceed successfully. It is not the mind alone that has these attitudes, but they inhabit the physical sphere as well. In other words, to get the ball rolling, you have to meet both your inner and outer "Monsters."
The only way to start moving towards completely uprooting the resentment is to start breaking down the barriers that the ego has erected, "for my protection," it thinks. (re: conceit or arrogance: I would think that establishing a positive rapport with someone would work wonders towards realizing you are both "on" the same level.)
First Step for resentment (might be mutual): Communicate with an open show of respect and goodwill. We need to keep the channels of communication open. Communicate with a genuine smile of regard and if no positive communication is made, try again later.
With arrogance or conceit, I think all one has to do is just allow oneself to like people and interact with them in friendly ways.
It has been said that time is the great healer, but this is true ONLY if we strive to be in communion and some sort of fellowship with our neighbors. I have seen family members avoid each other for years and, believe me, time is no healer for them; it is a curse. It is open channels of communication that best keep people on friendly terms. However, to ensure open channels of communication, one must not be of an accusing, demanding, or complaining nature.
That's the part that just too many of us don't get. It is hurtful to accuse others, especially when they have done nothing wrong. It is hateful to DEMANDING be. And it is a curse to be of an always-complaining-about-what's-wrong-with-Suzie mentality.
I don't see what's so difficult about that. Could be some sort of anti-anxiety medicine or mood medicine might be called for, though. I mean, sometimes some people need help managing their thought patterns due to tendencies to focus on the negative traits of others, or whatever.
I go by "if talking doesn't work silence works even better".
It's not that simple. Conceit is multifaceted, and relates to self esteem. Self esteem is self-defeating and ultimately destructive. Self-esteem in the last analysis is both unrealistic, illogical and self- and socially destructive – often doing more harm than good. Self-esteem is based on arbitrary definitional premises, over-generalized, perfectionistic and grandiose thinking.
Acknowledging or rating and valuing behaviors and characteristics is dysfunctional and unnecessary, and rating and valuing human beings' totality and total selves is irrational, unethical and absolutistic. It is the ultimate form of conceit and yet for some reason I still have trouble not doing it.
I should be doing unconditional self-acceptance and unconditional other-acceptance, but I can't seem to reconcile that with wisdom, morality, and mental development. I feel like there's something wrong with doing that. Something that leads people to shamelessness, and certainly with myself it is something I can't see is right because I can't seem to crack my delusion with this one. I'm stuck.
That isn't my biggest problem, because I don't resent people even if they might resent me (I've outright been told by a loved one that they resented me before). I don't have resentment, I have self-esteem. Too much of it, and based off a delusion.
It is not being hurtful that is the main problem with it. People don't like to be told that they are wrong ever, even when a criticism is valid and even helpful. It's that 8 worldly Dharma of wanting praise but avoiding criticism or blame that makes people take what is said to them or about them personally as an attack on their character rather than an expression contrary to what they think. Being accused and not thinking one has anything to do with the causes and conditions that lead to the accusation is delusory thinking.
It certainly is hurtful to be demanding and I think it is horrific that I keep having this self-esteem based off of a deluded way of thinking, but I don't know how to stop yet. It's like a drug. It makes me feel good, until of course I really sit and think about it. I want to stop so I ask for real advice on how to stop. I know Unconditional self and other acceptance is the key, but I can't find the door.
I have anxiety, and I have been working on my equanimity, because I thought that was the problem, but now my fears are gone, but the self-esteem is still there. What do I do?
Hello Fruit Punch Wizard,
It's possible that this talk (and practising meditation) might be helpful to you in some way. The following extract is from page 1 and 2.
from "Who we really are" by Ajahn Sumedho.
http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article/216/
With kind wishes,
Dazzle
This conceit, this arrogance of our human state is a problem that has been going on since Adam and Eve, or since Lucifer was thrown out of heaven. It's a kind of pride that can make human beings lose all perspective; so we need humour to point to the absurdity of our self-obsession.
Humor! Exactly! However, notice that the primary meaning of humor is the quality of being amusing or comical in one's communications with others. Also, ironically, the secondary meaning pertains to mood; now that too is pertinent here, as aloofness and joyfulness both are moods, though generally exclusive of the other. But the real essence of humor is exactly not taking oneself too seriously and being disposed to laugh at oneself rather than at others. Also, when we think of humor, we think of a mode of relating to others. I mean, one doesn’t just go around being bemused with himself by himself in oneself, does he? I see a pattern that might bear a little more examination. Can you just shut out the beautiful voices around you? And proudly KNOW that this way of silence is THE higher road? Most communication with those around us is nonverbal anyway, so you don't actually need to engage in chit-chat. Silence is fine and useful and peaceful, but not for its own sake —at least not all of the time. People generally take silence as unfriendliness or aloofness and this erects barriers which may adversely effect subsequent communications as the need may arise. Then the "talking doesn't work" problem is compounded by not having good relationships in place. Rapport is something that is built. Trust needs to be earned and, frankly, a noncommunicating stance doesn't help in that department. Let’s get our terms right. Muddled thinking won’t help us here. Conceit is Over-Inflated Self-Esteem, full stop.
Hmmm! Why cannot you reconcile loving others (an open, essentially non-conditioned mode of being) with wisdom —or with morality or mental development? ARE YOU SURE? What’s wrong with combining wisdom (Light) with love (Heat), when every ray of sun can do it? Are you somehow on such a different plane of existence that nothing in you reflects the structure of the natural world? I think not. You say you “can’t seem to crack my delusion with this one and am stuck?” Nah! It’s not a delusion, really. Just a derned hang-up to shake off.
Communication with ourselves by reflections that assess our mistakes and progress coupled with acts of considered regard for others is the only way to grow. I think that's better effected by actually interacting with people ON THEIR LEVEL, and is the only way I know to knock down the paper tigers that may sometimes cloud our vision.
However, we do have within ourselves the capacity not to allow clouds of desire or aversion to keep us from seeing the Beauty that pervades all things. That capability is nonconditioned love. It is the ability to see glimpses of the Good, the True, the Beautiful (kalos) Gem at our Beloved's Heart.
The door to nonconditioned love is closed only to those who never seek it. The Key to that door is held by the One who is waiting for You to knock and ask for it. However, to ask for it you first have to let go of your notions that the phenomenal "you" is any sort of reality. It's only your life that is real, says Ortega. Everything else is secondary to it. It is in your life that you find all else, including your "self" and the "world." It is only the living in a "world" that makes it a world; if it were uninhabited it would just be a point in space, but not a "world." As Ortega says,
Other people really are in the same boat, too. I try not to argue small points with people, because the words just get in the way. Nonverbal communication communicates a lot more. Parsing every sentence people speak is not nice, in my book. I know I speak and write imprecisely and am usually more than just a bit embarrassed later at the inadequacies and redundancies in my language —both oral and written. I remember how much time it took in College philosophy classes writing papers making them decent enough to hand in. It was so hard to eliminate all the contradictions inherent in the different sentiments or thoughts being expressed, and I was the same person speaking!!!!!! From that I learned not to be quite so quick to point out the errors of others, being so heavily laden with my own. I know I do point out errors on this board, though... Me Bad!
We all have anxieties and only a few in each generation are fearless.
The four immeasurables are usually described and referred to in terms of relationships to others, but that is purely because those are a context in which most people understand them most easily. Actually, they describe how awakened mind relates to every aspect of experience.
If you are becoming tyrannical with others because you can't accept their flawed thinking and behaviors or the likely consequences, it is not equanimity for the people themselves where you need to start. Instead, try cultivating equanimity for the fear you experience when you think of the consequences, and the distaste you experience when you see flawed thinking and behaviors. When you can fully experience that fear and distaste, the compulsion to criticize will unwind relatively peacefully of its own accord, because it is a reaction which is trying to avoid that experience.
Actually compulsions are nothing but ungoverned (not ungovernable) impulses that gather together and drive you in certain directions. Start with delving deeper until you see that you are not your impulses, but that your impulses are just bouncing thoughts within you. I have strong impulses and choose to channel them elsewhere when following them would make things messy. Gosh, if I let my sexual impulses come together without restraining them I could really mess up my life irreparably. The thing is, I know better and stay clear.
I agree that you have to start with yourself. However I don't understand the references to fear above. Yes, strong distastes for foreign ideas or notions, etc., is something one really has to work to uproot. It's OK to have them, but spiritual defeating to identify ourselves with them.
Humor and humility are the answer. Someone always on the defensive about his ideas is not likely to be open to the truth. His defensive posture creates too many mental clouds that would obstruct any clear vision of the clear Day.
Being aware of your own limitations.
It usually doesn't take any effort on your part. Sooner or later life throws you a curve ball.
It's not a higher road. If speaking doesn't improve upon silence and creates discord it's better to stay quiet. That old saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" Comes to mind.
If someone wants to pick a fight, then letting them "win" makes it easier to get past the conflict.
False friendliness is just hypocrisy. The goal isn't to just be friendly or say only nice things, or to be funny, or in good humor. It's mental development.
Not necessarily, sometimes when both people are angry they say things out of anger which is a bad thing to do. Sometimes shutting up, and letting people blow off steam is better before saying something one might regret.
Forcing communication is also a bad idea.
Or wrongly placed self esteem. It doesn't even need to be overinflated. If your self esteem is build by harming others, one shouldn't have any self esteem at all.
See you missed a point that I was making about my form of self esteem. I get it from making up categories and comparing myself with others. In doing so, I make myself feel better, and at the same time sabotage any sense of self esteem I feel, because as I said it's not the right kind of self esteem at all.
Not when I know a person is willfully causing harm and putting themselves in their own circumstances of suffering. I just think trying to make excuses for them in my head to be able to empathize with them makes my sense of empathy false.
It's fake, that's why. I want it to be real.
Gosh I hope not. I know things about me reflect in the natural world, but I know for one thing, I still cannot bring myself to empathize with sociopaths, and believe me, I have struggled and tried to.
Any tips to shaking it off?
I am not a sociopath. That's the problem. I want to have compassion for them but I cannot. It won't work.
It's killing me. I keep doing it even though I do my best to watch what I think.
I was able to build my Equanimity, and what it did was take away my sense of anxiety about change. That's great, but it didn't change how I keep thinking that, which makes me think it's an issue with compassion.
Absolutely, and I've actually tried to do my best to use them as tools to get rid of my false way of thinking.
I don't want them to get hurt and I know it will happen. It's not my trying to be tyrannical, although I know when I try to "help", that's probably what it is. My being tyrannical and not wanting them to end up facing the consequences.
How?
I don't know what I'm doing wrong.:(
Hence I would like to know how to govern them. Just watching them doesn't mean that they don't come up. I watch them and try to limit how they steer my actions, but if they keep coming up, mindfulness alone isn't clearing it up.
I want 'em gone. It's not me at all. I don't like it either.
Me too, but I want them gone.
True equanimity eliminates our fear of change. It does not however, eliminate the thoughts that keep coming up. I used to be loaded with phobias, but now they're mostly completely gone because I did Equanimity based meditation.
I'm obviously not a funny person :crazy: but I am humble oooooon Wednesdays.
One thing which helped me in this respect was volunteering for a crisis hotline. The organization gave me training in reflective listening, which was a useful framework for this, at least. Plus, you get to meet lots of people who are relating to their lives in irrational, annoying ways (particularly the people who would call 50 times a day if you let them.) It adds up to lots of practice on this score, a context where compassion is absolutely called for, and there is usually absolutely nothing you can do to help.
Whatever meditation you did for equanimity probably involved imagining a person. Replace the person in that meditation with the experience of the fear or distaste. You may find it helpful to listen to the explanation 15 min 30s into this talk (part of this series) of how to open your heart to experience (i.e. cultivate metta.)
Found this recently, turns out I was right about the self-esteem thing :
Gotta fix that...:sadc: I'm still working on it!
Gratitude. Remind yourself that you are merely the product of causes and conditions. Thus, you had nothing to do with yourself. And they had nothing to do with themselves. And thus, comparing yourself with them is no different from comparing this with that.