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Cessation of thinking..

megahumanmegahuman
edited November 2010 in Buddhism Basics
leads to the cessation of dualism, i.e. likes, dislikes, etc.

So, how does one 'not think,' if that's exactly what it is?

Or is it even not thinking?

Thanks,
may the Force be with you.


:p

Comments

  • PietroPumokinPietroPumokin
    edited November 2010
    what was it old D says... " think about not-thinking"
    OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
  • megahumanmegahuman
    edited November 2010
    I heard that was the 'zen' approach :O

    Hahah, I think that may actually work, but I haven't dedicated myself to it.
    If you do, or know someone who has/is, tell me how it goes, please!
  • EpicurusEpicurus
    edited November 2010
    I can go to a place in my head where I don't think. But it's like zoning out, I have my eyes open but don't see. I have been reading on mindfulness and it seems to be the opposite of zoning out but I don't quite understand myself.
  • BarraBarra soto zennie wandering in a cloud in beautiful, bucolic Victoria BC, on the wacky left coast of Canada Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Its not about "not thinking" - its about not letting the thoughts be in control
  • upalabhavaupalabhava
    edited November 2010
    What is the cessation of seeing? Closing one's eyes? Of course not. You would just see darkness then.

    Same goes for thinking.

    Even in the deep sleep of no dreams your mind is apprehending its object. It just happens to be blackness.
  • megahumanmegahuman
    edited November 2010
    I am still a bit confused.
  • upalabhavaupalabhava
    edited November 2010
    I think we all are. In one way or another.
  • megahumanmegahuman
    edited November 2010
    I wouldn't be surprised.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2010
    I have a couple of conflicting opinions on a meditative state where thoughts are absent. (It's very restful, I can say that much!) A lama told me once that this was wrong technique. A friend who has been studying/practicing for most of his adult life, including years in Dharamsala, said that this sounded like "calm abiding", which is one of the goals of meditation. Whether or not this is correct, I have no idea.
  • upalabhavaupalabhava
    edited November 2010
    Mind is always accompanied by the object of mind. In fact, the Sanskrit means "that which has an object". And to tell you the truth, I find this very odd. Often, the first thing we latch onto when we encounter Buddhism is the doctrine of no-soul. And when you see something like "Mind is that which has an object" you want to scream, 'Well, that's a damn SUBJECT, foo! You know, a soul!'. But it isn't an atman; it isn't a substance. It's changing all the time.

    Anyway, thoughts arise and they are apprehended by mind simultaneously. And we call this thinking.

    It's perfectly natural. Frankly, unavoidable.


    Dakini wrote: »
    I have a couple of conflicting opinions on a meditative state where thoughts are absent. (It's very restful, I can say that much!) A lama told me once that this was wrong technique. A friend who has been studying/practicing for most of his adult life, including years in Dharamsala, said that this sounded like "calm abiding", which is one of the goals of meditation. Whether or not this is correct, I have no idea.

    I would argue that the thought 'there is no thought' was present. Otherwise, it would be un-re-cogniz-able.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Ya think? Just perfect, blank, quietude isn't possible?
  • upalabhavaupalabhava
    edited November 2010
    Dakini wrote: »
    Ya think? Just perfect, blank, quietude isn't possible?


    No. Even in the deep sleep without dreams, mind apprehends its object.

    Thoughts can be very, very subtle. So subtle you don't think they are there.

    I mean we could split hairs and say that mind apprehending blackness is blank and quiet. But it isn't no-thought.
  • megahumanmegahuman
    edited November 2010
    Like the subconscious?
    And this is true, that it is unavoidable, only because we have grown to have words, a language. But I suppose it's how you think or hold to the thoughts, that could be an issue.
  • upalabhavaupalabhava
    edited November 2010
    megahuman wrote: »
    Like the subconscious?
    And this is true, that it is unavoidable, only because we have grown to have words, a language. But I suppose it's how you think or hold to the thoughts, that could be an issue.


    Consciousness can be below awareness, for sure. You can be talking with someone while completely unaware of the hostility you are presenting.

    Now, as for unconsciousness, the East doesn't really have such a thing. There is always consciousness (mind). There is always the subjective experiencing. You might not be aware of it, but it is there.
  • The_Fruit_Punch_WizaThe_Fruit_Punch_Wiza Veteran
    edited November 2010
    A cow also sits there and doesn't think much, but that doesn't mean they're practicing mindfulness or tranquility. The point is to slow the mind down so you can watch the senses, thoughts, and emotions. Recognize them and become aware of them and how they affect you.
  • newtechnewtech Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Hello:

    When people say to you "dont think about that" means: practice seclusion, practice seclusion of unskillful qualities...that means, stay away of that theme!..in and out of meditation.

    See this sutta: It shows how to do that

    MN-20

    U wont be able to stop "thinking"-lets call it stop verbalizing and evaluating some situation- in a useful way (without "blacking out") until u are quite away from that bad sittuation, so there is no point of trying.

    U should practice, some unskillful thought its arising, even so, i wont keep my attention to that, i will make an effort and direct my attention to something else until that fades, before its to late and i fall into lamentation,sorrow,etc.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2010
    megahuman wrote: »
    leads to the cessation of dualism, i.e. likes, dislikes, etc.

    So, how does one 'not think,' if that's exactly what it is?

    Or is it even not thinking?

    Thanks,
    may the Force be with you.


    :p

    One "not thinks" by practicing "just perceiving". Breathing in there is just the experience of the inhale and breathing out there is just the experience of the exhale. However, thinking always comes up and interrupts this process and the practice is to practice returning to this "just perceiving" over and over and over which naturally leads to the accumulation of wisdom.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Thinking isn't a problem. Wrong thoughts are "the" problem. We don't get rid of those wrong thoughts by subduing them (though we can through jhana for a time); we get rid of them by replacing their ignorance-based foundation with self-realization/insight/wisdom. Basically the intention/volition is guiding the mind to self-transformation at levels below that of thought, which are normally inaccessible to us. For this to work we need to generate the best conditions to allow it to happen, ergo the Noble Eightfold Path and the meditative component of practice.
  • megahumanmegahuman
    edited November 2010
    -- I am understanding where you guys are coming from.
    So, for instance, perception and assumptions are of unwholesome thought?
    As well as having your mind wander off into so many directions ?

    Then what should you think of, say, at school, surrounded by bickering teenagers and judgement, or at home, on your own?
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited November 2010
    If one practises Samatha meditation, all thoughts eventually settle and the mind becomes quiet and at ease.

    It's not about forcing anything or only having "good" thoughts - its about relaxing and letting go of everything.




    .
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2010
    megahuman wrote: »
    leads to the cessation of dualism, i.e. likes, dislikes, etc.

    So, how does one 'not think,' if that's exactly what it is?

    Or is it even not thinking?

    Thanks,
    may the Force be with you.


    :p

    Thoughts are like waves on the ocean.
    Waves are merely motion of water. Thoughts are like the unsettled nature of the mind. The idea of repressing them misses the point. The more you practice the more you will be able to allow the mind to rest in its own nature without the disturbances of habitual thought patterns and clinging.
    Just let the thoughts come and go like waves and rest in the space between.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    We need to think in order to perceive reality clearly. The second noble truth says that ignorance of reality causes grasping which is the cause of suffering. Therefore we need to stop grasping onto thought.

    Shenpa's analogy of waves and the ocean is good. We don't trust each individual wave but we let it ride and fall. My teacher says we trust the ocean rather than the waves and said that was equanimity.

    Nonetheless when we stop grasping we still need to perceive reality clearly in order to remove ignorance.

    Stopping your thoughts would be shying away from reality. Avidya. It is the cause of suffering rather than the remedy. Of course if your thoughts stop of themselves no worries. That too is just a wave on the ocean.
  • newtechnewtech Veteran
    edited November 2010
    megahuman wrote: »
    -- I am understanding where you guys are coming from.
    So, for instance, perception and assumptions are of unwholesome thought?
    As well as having your mind wander off into so many directions ?

    Then what should you think of, say, at school, surrounded by bickering teenagers and judgement, or at home, on your own?

    When u are making assumptions, u understand, im making an assumption
    When u are wandering, u understand, im wandering
    When u are surrounded by bickers, u understand, im surrounded by bickers
    When u are judging, u understand, im judging

    That is called mindfulness. Thats what you should do.
    If u are doing that ok, u may want to add:

    I understand im making assumptions, i should stop
    I understand im wandering, i should stop
    I understand im surrounded by bickers, i should stay away, or
    I understand im surrounded by bickers, i should practice love-kindness

    ---

    perception: this is red, this is blue. Thats perception.
    Assumptions: are taking something for granted, with ignorance as root.

    Both are "unwholesome", but assumptions are much more tangible in practice.
    U shouldnt try in school: "im going be in my class without perception" :)
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