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Name of a person returning from Nirvana?

MikeScraseMikeScrase
edited November 2010 in Buddhism Basics
As I've mentioned, I'm a writer, and a friend of mine recently suggested a concept for a story that I'm going to be helping him write. The idea reminded me of a concept I learned about a while ago; a person that returns from Nirvana to help others, or more specifically someone that returns so that they help others achieve enlightenment.

I remember those people having a special name. Problem is, I don't remember what it was, and with only a vague description of the concept in my memory I'm having a lot of trouble looking it up myself.

Can anyone shed light on the name of the thing I'm thinking of? And can anyone suggest reading (preferably online reading, for convenience) to develop my understanding of this concept? I'd really appreciate it.

Comments

  • sukhitasukhita
    edited November 2010
    bodhisattva :)
  • MikeScraseMikeScrase
    edited November 2010
    Thanks. I was hoping it would be something a little more catchy, but it at least gives me something to research now.
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited November 2010
    It's my pleasure. Best wishes for the story you are writing...
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Fred?
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited November 2010
    For the sake of accuracy a bodhisattva isn't someone who returns from nirvana. A bodhisattva is one who puts off entering nirvana for the sake of helping others. I believe there is an innate sort of helping system in the world in which the ultimate helps us all to move in the right direction, though. I don't know of any terms for it.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited November 2010
    They're called Bodhisattvas.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited November 2010
    I know what a bodhisattva is, and i'm pretty sure that's not what i'm referring to. I really don't know how to explain WHAT i'm even referring to, as it's an idea that I have in my head that I can't even articulate to myself. I've read about it a bit, but i've never seen a term used for it. If you think i'm talking about a bodhisattva that's ok too, though. :)
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited November 2010
    oops. Somehow, I missed your earlier post. I thought one could be reborn as a Bodhisattva, that is, the Bodhisattva (or awakened being) who has just left his body at death, and passes into the bardo, has a choice of whether to return for another rebirth to help humanity, or not. But being a Bodhisattva, he/she would choose to return. But you seem to know more about it than I do.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    As far as I know, there isn't a term from one who returns from Nirvana, because according to the teachings it doesn't occur. Nirvana is the state of release from Samsara; so either Samsara is a description of human mental suffering or a continuous cycle of rebirths in any number of actual realms of existence (in either way, Nirvana is said to mean the end of this cycle).

    Bodhisattva is the term used for the many lifetimes of what would become Siddhartha Gautama before he was finally able to penetrate the Dharma and teach it to others. It's also a Mahayana term denoting one who vows to liberate all sentient beings, regardless of awakening; which is a tough one because we really can't control those future rebirths. It's said one who at least attains stream-entry will only have 7 more rebirths, but that's until they're fully enlightened; there's nothing about becoming a full Buddha (who finds the Dharma that is untaught and expounds it). More likely its purpose is to drive humankind to generating compassion for those who are yet to be born that will have either wholesome or unwholesome conditions to deal with.

    EDIT: As to the "bardo" mentioned above, who knows for sure. The little bit I know about that is that such an idea arose after the Buddha's passing, and naturally some went with it and others did not.

    It's complicated. :) The different traditions have their own views, we have our own views, reality shows us one view we're not predisposed toward; but the Nirvana thing... no return.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    It's complicated. :)

    WOW! I'll say! A lot more so than I thought. Thanks.

    What's "stream entry"?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    In traditions that favor gradual enlightenment, stream-entry is the first and lowest level of awakening, that inextricably leads to full liberation because one's view has changed focus (away from the self). There are three more levels after that, namely once-returner, non-returner and worthy one (arahant). I can't remember the words in their original language. :)

    Arahant is the same level of liberation as the Buddha, but naturally with the help of his teachings. There's a lot of speculation as to the awakening of say, Zen, but that hardly matters. If it were even the lowest, it would be enough of a change in perspective.

    The important thing is the purpose, for what are we when we are not a separate self? Part of the bigger picture, helping to alleviate the suffering of others and make a better future for all life (including whatever becomes of the aggregates after death). Whatever tradition, and whether enlightenment first or later, the "Bodhisattva" ideal is a great one. Some of the views about it may be off, but the emphasis on compassion is definitely helpful and needed in this world. :) The selfless view is the bomb.
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited November 2010
    compassionate_warrior wrote: »
    oops. Somehow, I missed your earlier post. I thought one could be reborn as a Bodhisattva, that is, the Bodhisattva (or awakened being) who has just left his body at death, and passes into the bardo, has a choice of whether to return for another rebirth to help humanity, or not. But being a Bodhisattva, he/she would choose to return. But you seem to know more about it than I do.

    Doh. I don't think your post was even referring to mine. I think you were talking to OP :lol: my mistake.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited November 2010
    I was talking to the OP, but if I'd read your post #6, I wouldn't have made my comment, since you already discussed Bodhisattvas.
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    edited November 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    I believe there is an innate sort of helping system in the world in which the ultimate helps us all to move in the right direction, though. I don't know of any terms for it.

    I think that there may be some names for this: Nirmanakaya, Buddha, Buddha field, Sangha, Sambhogakaya, mind, Buddha nature, Buddha mind, also Boddhisattva's. Or more conventionally accumulated positive karma.

    Cheers, WK
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Hi all, isn't there both nirvana and paranirvana? We seem to be talking about paranirvana here. But a Buddha is able to help while still being in a state of Nirvana and the Buddha did this. To go even further in kagyu tradition, after realisation, there is no difference between Nirvana and Samsara, so an enlightened being does not have to give up Nirvana to appear to operate from within Samsara. From the POV of the enlightened being Samsara has actually transformed into Nirvana (technically speaking they are said to be non-dual and undifferentiated). Not sure if this helps though.

    Cheers, WK
  • TheJourneyTheJourney
    edited November 2010
    Right. Samsara and nirvana have the same nature. This entire conversation is based on conventional, provisionary knowledge.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited November 2010
    I think this conversation is based on conventional, provisionary, speculation and guesswork.;)
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited November 2010
    robot wrote: »
    I think this conversation is based on conventional, provisionary, speculation and guesswork.;)
    :thumbsup:
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    edited November 2010
    robot wrote: »
    I think this conversation is based on conventional, provisionary, speculation and guesswork.;)

    Depends on what view you hold. Our view shapes our reality.

    Edit: Not all traditions consider the inseparability of nirvana and samsara as being valid.

    Cheers, WK
  • IronRabbitIronRabbit Veteran
    edited November 2010
    There is a story of a mahasiddha (literally translated as great adept) who practiced as a hermit in a cave with only a small dog he found as a companion. Upon being summoned to the "heavens" by the "gods" who noticed his accomplishments he entered nirvana and was granted a "pure land" existence. He thought frequently of his dog but was persuaded to stay in the "heavens" by his hosts. One day, looking down upon the earth he saw his dog grown thin and sad so he gave up his nirvana and returned to the earth to be with her. The reunion was very happy (like when we come home from work and our dogs jump up and down) and when the mahasiddha scratched the dog she transformed into a dakini who told him he had learned there were greater things than temptation. He achieved full enlightenment and lived a long life for the benefit of others. His name was Kukkuripa. Whether he actually existed or was/is a mythical figure is open to debate. The term mahasiddha does not literally mean one who returns from nirvana but his story illustrates one who did.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Great story! There was another good one on the "Vajrasattva Empowerment" thread. I'm wondering if we should start a thread for Buddhist stories.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited November 2010
    HH is said to be one of a number of emanations of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara. I think I recall hearing an interview with him where he refused to fess up to it though. I find the idea of a fully enlightened Bodhisattva emanating beings to teach and do unimaginable deeds for the benefit of beings, to be very inspirational and mysterious. It speaks to me somehow. It is totally unprovable by me at this point. All of us choose to believe what we will, or what is part of a system that works for us. Lately, (mainly from reading postings from the wise folks here), I am coming to accept the view that the only real measure of our progress that we have is the reduction of suffering. Most of what I have considered to be realization or knowledge gained is nothing more than new concepts that I have latched on to. I am trying my best not to get too attached to the different notions of what nirvana might or might not be like, that run through my head. Not all that successfully. Like many people I suppose, I'm inclined to cling to concepts that appeal to me or when I feel that I have unearthed some 'truth'. I need to be able to distinguish actual realization from "tales of power'. I have wandered way off topic here, sorry.
  • PietroPumokinPietroPumokin
    edited November 2010
    A ZOMBIE
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    The bodhisattva path is actually the mahayana path to become a buddha. You do resolve to save all beings but the best way to do this is to become a buddha (as fast as possible). What you put off is called 'peaceful nirvana' which is when you destroy sense craving but the knowledge veils over your buddha nature are still intact. The bodhisattva path is the path to clear the knowledge veils.

    By devoting ones life to saving other beings it helps to overcome the problem of clinging to thoughts of self cherishing.

    That is from a mahayana perspective. What the bodhisattva path means to a non-mahayana tradition might be different. But that then might be like asking what a christian saint is to a zen or tibetan practitioner. It could be interesting but why should a buddhist be an expert on christian saints over a christian?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Jeff, ty. :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Its a little confusing because the entry point to the bodhisattva path is not at the arahant level...

    So people on the bodhisattva path have not extinguished sense cravings though the ones progressing on the actual bhumis - 10 'stages' - (as apposed to an aspirational vow) have realized that the sense cravings are empty. And so in some sense they are free from them.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited November 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    In traditions that favor gradual enlightenment, stream-entry is the first and lowest level of awakening
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    What the bodhisattva path means to a non-mahayana tradition might be different. But that then might be like asking what a christian saint is to a zen or tibetan practitioner. <TABLE style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" class=tborder border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR title="Post 145342" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1></TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    Its a little confusing because the entry point to the bodhisattva path is not at the arahant level



    In the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, the level of Stream Enterer in Theravada (a Buddhist non Mahayana tradition) is said to be the equivalent to the first Bodhisattva Bhumi in Tibetan Buddhism (See page 141 of " Path to Buddhahood -Teachings on Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation" by Ringu Tulku)


    Kind wishes,

    D.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited November 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    the level of Stream Enterer

    'Sotapanna' in Pali
  • DavyDavy
    edited November 2010
    All good answers...

    If you are a writer, make up your own word. e.g. In Latin, "unus quisnam reverto iuvo" means 'one who returns to help'.

    Perhaps U.Q.R.I. = UQRI, pronounced Ookree

    so Ookree is the name of this one who returned. ;)

    or whatever...
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