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If everyone becomes a bodhisattva, won't nobody become enlightened?
So basically, boddhisattva is just a not-silent buddha?
Two of the three bodies of a buddha are about communication, the nirmanakaya and the sambhogakāya, so I'm not sure about Buddha's being silent. Your talking non-differentiation?
boddhisattva levels? like the 4 stages of nirvana? again, how is boddhisattva different from buddha'ness/hood?
There are ten bodhisattva stages in the Tibetan tradition. The Bodhisattva has discovered the true nature of reality on the first stage, however this realisation may not be stable, or at its full clarity. As he/she progresses through the stages he/she develops the qualities inherent to Bodhisattvahood, and strengthens his/her realisation. When he/she reaches full Buddhaood his mind is purified of all imperfections and he/she attains all abilities that come with it.
Again Trungpa's book "The Myth of Freedom" explores this in lucid detail.
There are ten bodhisattva stages in the Tibetan tradition. The Bodhisattva has discovered the true nature of reality on the first stage, however this realisation may not be stable, or at its full clarity. As he/she progresses through the stages he/she develops the qualities inherent to Bodhisattvahood, and strengthens his/her realisation. When he/she reaches full Buddhaood his mind is purified of all imperfections and he/she attains all abilities that come with it.
Again Trungpa's book "The Myth of Freedom" explores this in lucid detail.
The tibetan tradition is not completely buddhist, it uses Bøn and other indian traditions.
So, in what stage are boddhisattvas? is it safe to say they are srotapannas?
The tibetan tradition is not completely buddhist, it uses Bøn and other indian traditions.
So, in what stage are boddhisattvas? is it safe to say they are srotapannas?
Boddhisattvas have overcome the emotional veil (preventing liberation) and buddhas have overcome the conceptual veil (preventing enlightenment). I don't have any opinion on srotapannas.
Boddhisattvas have overcome the emotional veil (preventing liberation) and buddhas have overcome the conceptual veil (preventing enlightenment). I don't have any opinion on srotapannas.
Cheers, WK
With this types of conceptions, I don't have further opinion on Boddhisattvas.
Excellent quote, Trinley. A 1st bhumi bodhisattva is liberated and will never suffer again as a samsaric being. The difference between 1st level and the last is a matter of increasing scope of awareness.
TFPW: Just because some daft bint with a title messed your head around is no reason to reject the Mahayana teachings, any more than Jim Jones is a reason to reject Christianity. If your knowledge of Mahayana is vast, you have doubtless read Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation and/or Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara which answer this question in great detail.
The tibetan tradition is not completely buddhist, it uses Bøn and other indian traditions.
So, in what stage are boddhisattvas? is it safe to say they are srotapannas?
Well, leaving aside the trollworthiness of this claim: Read Candrakirti's Madhamakavatara for the description of the dashabhumi. Completely buddhist, completely Indian. There is no difference in the bodhisattva teachings in Tibet. This text is foundational. According to this schema, the samadhi of a 1st bhumi bodhisattva exceeds that of a stream-enterer. I would have to dig out the text for details, if you care.
This fascinating and enlightening discussion does make the point that Buddhism is much more complex than the Buddha taught in the Deer Park and goes far beyond the Noble Truths.
I would have to dig out the text for details, if you care.
The first bodhisattva ground transcends the level of ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The Bodhisattvas who enter this ground become members of the family of the Tathagatas; they will never more stray to other paths, for their lineage is now irreversible [...] Bodhisattvas experience an extraordinary happiness, which is why this ground is called Perfect Joy.
[...]
Bodhisattvas who attain the first ground are now Aryas or Superiors, for they can never relapse into the states of ordinary beings. This ground of the Mahayana is said to correspond, by analogy, to the eighth Arya level of the Hinayana (that of "Stream Enterer abiding by the result"). This is according to a scheme [see note] that counts the state of "Arhat abiding by the result" as the first level, and proceeds in reverse order through the level of "candidate for arhatship," and so on, to that of Stream Enterer abiding by the result."
[...from the notes...]
(1) Stream Enterer. The Shravakas who abide in the understanding of the fifteen instants of the path of seeing, as described in the Hinayana Abhidharma, and the Shravakas who abide by the path of joining and the fifteen instants of the path of seeing, as described in the Mahayana Abhidharma, are all candidates for the degree of Stream Enterer. When they reach the sixteenth instant of the path of seeing, they become Stream Enterers who abide by the result. They are called Stream Enterers because they enter the stream of the path whereby they will attain the result.
_Introduction to the Middle Way_ by Mipham 2002 p.149 & 360
I suppose we can all turn around the idea to that. "If no one wants to be a Bodhisattva, no one will get enlightened."
Bodhisattva doesn't have to described in such a complexed way, I am sure even Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva started as a deluded human being like all of countless Kalpas ago.
Bodhisattva is:
Humanistic Buddhism is the bodhisattva way; to be an energetic, enlightened, and endearing person who strives to help all sentient beings liberate themselves and to transform our world into a Pure Land of peace and bliss. We direct our efforts towards purifying our minds and bodies, right here and now in the present moment. Humanistic Buddhism stresses the purification of life through ethical thought and the elevation of both mind and spirit. If you believe in the law of cause and effect, and practice it in your life, then the law of cause and effect is Humanistic Buddhism. If you believe in compassion, and practice it in your life, then compassion is Humanistic Buddhism.
Well, leaving aside the trollworthiness of this claim: Read Candrakirti's Madhamakavatara for the description of the dashabhumi. Completely buddhist, completely Indian. There is no difference in the bodhisattva teachings in Tibet. This text is foundational. According to this schema, the samadhi of a 1st bhumi bodhisattva exceeds that of a stream-enterer. I would have to dig out the text for details, if you care.
I suppose we can all turn around the idea to that. "If no one wants to be a Bodhisattva, no one will get enlightened."
Bodhisattva doesn't have to described in such a complexed way, I am sure even Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva started as a deluded human being like all of countless Kalpas ago.
Bodhisattva is:
Humanistic Buddhism is the bodhisattva way; to be an energetic, enlightened, and endearing person who strives to help all sentient beings liberate themselves and to transform our world into a Pure Land of peace and bliss. We direct our efforts towards purifying our minds and bodies, right here and now in the present moment. Humanistic Buddhism stresses the purification of life through ethical thought and the elevation of both mind and spirit. If you believe in the law of cause and effect, and practice it in your life, then the law of cause and effect is Humanistic Buddhism. If you believe in compassion, and practice it in your life, then compassion is Humanistic Buddhism.
And what distinguishes this from Humanism other than a modifier?
And what distinguishes this from Humanism other than a modifier?
Not much to be honest, because alot of basic Humanism are the correct way to practice the Dharma. Yet so little people bother these days, because it's always the small things that are hard to practice.
But I guess the difference is that all Humanistic Buddhists still practice all the traditional methods such as Sutra reciting, meditations, Dharma functions and Mantra recitations.
Making practical actions small and practical while not turning back to well practiced beneficial traditions.
a meditator has to feel comfortable in the himalaia.
as member of a brahmin class, i can force this by any means.
however, I Will Prefer Not to Use Militar Means.
[QUOTE=Vincenzi;150295]then how is a buddha different from a boddhisattva?[/QUOTE]
A buddha realises that there is nothing more to learn and acts for the benefit of sentient beings effortlessly without intention, yet a boddhisattva still has doubt, fear, and still needs to strive and does not perfectly know what is beneficial and what is not, and does not know perfectly what is real and what is not........maybe .
Cheers, WK
I don't think that's right, at least not in my tradition which teaches Relative Bodhicitta and Absolute Bodhicitta.
Relative Bodhicitta is something we all strive to be - a good person, living in samsara, but flawed and imperfect. Pretty much as you've described. A person who has taken the Bodhisattva Vows can initially only attain relative bodhicitta. Absolute Bodhicitta is the final destination.
Absolute Bodhicitta is also known as Buddhahood or enlightenment. A being who has achieved Absolute Bodhicitta, a Bodhisattva, can decide to be reborn or not, and can decide which sphere to be reborn in. He does this for the benefit of beings. Although he lives in samsara, he no longer suffers. Being awakened, he is equally content living in samsara or a hell or a realm of deities like the Pure Land. His external environment no longer affects him.
So in short, a Bodhisattva is basically a buddha by another name.
"A being who has achieved Absolute Bodhicitta, a Bodhisattva, can decide to be reborn or no"
nice... basically a forsenagåmi by other name.
is the skill to choose a destination in rebirth only available to Bodhisattva's, or is it available also to a srotapanna?
I don't recognise the term, I'm afraid. Is it possibly just a word used by a different tradition for a similar concept?
hmm... it is more of a theravada concept, but "i'm buddhist/mahayana/zen".
a srotapanna is someone that will be only reborn 7 more times, at most, in a human'oid realm or better. a sakadagami will be reborn at most 1 more time, as a human'oid. an anågami will not be reborn as a human'oid, but will be reborn in the sudavasa abodes (where only anågami's reside)... until acchieving nirvåna.
and this is when i disagree... the final stage is arahant; for me arahant is a silent buddha... and my goal is (samyak) buddha.
@Vincenzi In my tradition, a Bodhisattva is essentially a Buddha, in that he is a fully enlightened being, but he exists in this realm to rescue others from samsara (by teaching and/or example).
He may choose to be reborn many times, but of course this is only from our perspective: as an enlightened being, he knows that samsara is an illusion and although he chooses to share in it with it, he is not shackled by it.
@Beta, but... isn't a Bodhisattva someone that "vows to end all dukkha" (suffering)?
whatever tradition you follow, "sono (yes, in italian... because it is possible to write it without "me, io, I") an anågami bodhisattva (forsenagåmi; a bodhisattva who may or not return)
@Beta, but... isn't a Bodhisattva someone that "vows to end all dukkha" (suffering)?
whatever tradition you follow, "sono (yes, in italian... because it is possible to write it without "me, io, I") an anågami bodhisattva (forsenagåmi; a bodhisattva who may or not return)
Yes, that's right, but a Bodhisattva may not choose to be born into this realm to end all dukka. He could be reborn into a hell realm or anywhere. So there might be comparatively very few Bodhisattva's in this realm that we could potentially encounter. Although some people think there are all around us, in all kinds of people we meet, we just don't recognise them.
One of the most 'famous' Bodhisattvas is Chenrezig (or Avalokiteshvara, as he is also known), the Compassion Buddha. Another is Buddha Amitabah, who is the Buddha of the Pure Land. There's a load of them in Tibetan practice, representing different aspects of the dharma.
But I agree, you find similar teachings in other traditions, albeit from slightly different perspectives.
I have to wonder if it is the case since supposedly if everyone becomes a bodhisattva all the people are refusing nirvana for the sake of everyone else. If the last sentient being alive becomes a Boddhisattva, and they're all rejecting attainment of Nirvana, won't that mean no one is escaping Samsara ever?
Those bodhisattvas who become Buddha will be there to liberate the last bodhisattva for a final counter down - supreme enlightenment :rockon:
(...) Yes, that's right, but a Bodhisattva may not choose to be born into this realm to end all dukka. He could be reborn into a hell realm or anywhere. So there might be comparatively very few Bodhisattva's in this realm that we could potentially encounter. Although some people think there are all around us, in all kinds of people we meet, we just don't recognise them.
One of the most 'famous' Bodhisattvas is Chenrezig (or Avalokiteshvara, as he is also known), the Compassion Buddha. Another is Buddha Amitabah, who is the Buddha of the Pure Land. There's a load of them in Tibetan practice, representing different aspects of the dharma.
But I agree, you find similar teachings in other traditions, albeit from slightly different perspectives.
...the forsenagåmi is my own invention.
what about Maitreya? 'don't like some messian'istic aspects of this figure in someones' minds.
I have to wonder if it is the case since supposedly if everyone becomes a bodhisattva all the people are refusing nirvana for the sake of everyone else. If the last sentient being alive becomes a Boddhisattva, and they're all rejecting attainment of Nirvana, won't that mean no one is escaping Samsara ever?
Those bodhisattvas who become Buddha will be there to liberate the last bodhisattva for a final counter down - supreme enlightenment :rockon:
what's the difference between a Samyak Buddha and a Bodhisattva? ...specially since bodhisattva can be translated (according to Spoken Sanskrit dictionary) as "one whose essence is perfect knowledge", and Samyak Buddha as "complete Buddha" or "one whose essence became perfect knowledge".
[QUOTE=Vincenzi;150313]The tibetan tradition is not completely buddhist, it uses Bøn and other indian traditions.
So, in what stage are boddhisattvas? is it safe to say they are srotapannas?[/QUOTE]
Well, leaving aside the trollworthiness of this claim: Read Candrakirti's Madhamakavatara for the description of the dashabhumi. Completely buddhist, completely Indian. There is no difference in the bodhisattva teachings in Tibet. This text is foundational. According to this schema, the samadhi of a 1st bhumi bodhisattva exceeds that of a stream-enterer. I would have to dig out the text for details, if you care.
Not according to "Path to Buddhahood" - Ringu Tulku's commentary on Gampopa's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation". According to the text, the level of the first bhumi of the bodhisattva levels is the same as that of sotapanna (stream enterer) in Theravada.
[QUOTE=Vincenzi;150295]then how is a buddha different from a boddhisattva?[/QUOTE]
A buddha realises that there is nothing more to learn and acts for the benefit of sentient beings effortlessly without intention, yet a boddhisattva still has doubt, fear, and still needs to strive and does not perfectly know what is beneficial and what is not, and does not know perfectly what is real and what is not........maybe .
Cheers, WK
I don't think that's right, at least not in my tradition which teaches Relative Bodhicitta and Absolute Bodhicitta.
Relative Bodhicitta is something we all strive to be - a good person, living in samsara, but flawed and imperfect. Pretty much as you've described. A person who has taken the Bodhisattva Vows can initially only attain relative bodhicitta. Absolute Bodhicitta is the final destination.
Absolute Bodhicitta is also known as Buddhahood or enlightenment. A being who has achieved Absolute Bodhicitta, a Bodhisattva, can decide to be reborn or not, and can decide which sphere to be reborn in. He does this for the benefit of beings. Although he lives in samsara, he no longer suffers. Being awakened, he is equally content living in samsara or a hell or a realm of deities like the Pure Land. His external environment no longer affects him.
So in short, a Bodhisattva is basically a buddha by another name.
Hi Ada_B,
Sorry for replying so late, been away from the computer a lot lately. I don't completely disagree, but I think there is an element where the Boddhisattva knows the truth, but doesn't completely believe, or has some doubt as to what they know, or the realisation of the truth fluctuates, or falsely believe in self-conceitedness (even though they have seen truly). The reason for this is that emptiness is so much a part of normal reality that its been said that it is "too close" to us. After all our natural existence is already emptiness now, even before any learning or meditation! From books that I've read, it has been stated that an arya has seen the truth but there is still a progression from this state to full Buddhahood, otherwise there would be nothing beyond the first Bhumi, that would be the final destination, mind you this is merely a logical argument and logic is limited in relation to these things. An arya has achieved the ability to be liberated (through knowing voidness) whereas a Buddha is enlightened. Here there is a distinction between liberation and enlightenment. Liberation entails removal of the emotional veils and Enlightenment entails the removal of the conceptual veils. Basically an arya is someone who can enter paranirvana, yet dedicates, with joy, their entire existence to the removal of suffering in all living beings - that's certainly something beyond measure to aspire to, of course if you no longer fear death then its a lot easier!
(...) Basically an arya is someone who can enter paranirvana, yet dedicates, with joy, their entire existence to the removal of suffering in all living beings - that's certainly something beyond measure to aspire to, of course if you no longer fear death then its a lot easier!
Cheers, WK
...so a Boddhisattva is basically an arya (noble one) that vows to end dukkha (suffering) for all.
and doesn't fear death because; it is just a "change in residence" and can voluntarily chose viharas (lit.: residences).
(...) Read Candrakirti's Madhamakavatara for the description of the dashabhumi. Completely buddhist, completely Indian. There is no difference in the bodhisattva teachings in Tibet. This text is foundational. According to this schema, the samadhi of a 1st bhumi bodhisattva exceeds that of a stream-enterer. I would have to dig out the text for details, if you care.
Not according to "Path to Buddhahood" - Ringu Tulku's commentary on Gampopa's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation". According to the text, the level of the first bhumi of the bodhisattva levels is the same as that of sotapanna (stream enterer) in Theravada."
didn't find dashabhumi, but doing more research/study on bodhisattva's bhumis
If everybody became Bodhisattva,I don't think it would affect the number of us who who become enlightened in a negative way, may be it even increase it. To be enlightened is to be self-realised, for whilst wise man knows others, the enlightened man knows himself. A great article I found online and self-realization called 'What It Means To Be Self-Realised' explains this further, can be found on socyberty.com or following URL http://socyberty.com/advice/what-it-means-to-be-self-realized/
Comments
Two of the three bodies of a buddha are about communication, the nirmanakaya and the sambhogakāya, so I'm not sure about Buddha's being silent. Your talking non-differentiation?
Cheers, WK
There are ten bodhisattva stages in the Tibetan tradition. The Bodhisattva has discovered the true nature of reality on the first stage, however this realisation may not be stable, or at its full clarity. As he/she progresses through the stages he/she develops the qualities inherent to Bodhisattvahood, and strengthens his/her realisation. When he/she reaches full Buddhaood his mind is purified of all imperfections and he/she attains all abilities that come with it.
Again Trungpa's book "The Myth of Freedom" explores this in lucid detail.
The tibetan tradition is not completely buddhist, it uses Bøn and other indian traditions.
So, in what stage are boddhisattvas? is it safe to say they are srotapannas?
That is true, but I'm fairly certain it's definition of boddhisattvas is going to be pretty vanilla mahayana.
Would you mind to define "srotapannas", I'm sorry, I'm not familier with the term.
Boddhisattvas have overcome the emotional veil (preventing liberation) and buddhas have overcome the conceptual veil (preventing enlightenment). I don't have any opinion on srotapannas.
Cheers, WK
With this types of conceptions, I don't have further opinion on Boddhisattvas.
Pratitya-Samutpada.
TriLaksana
...if i recall'ed correctly.
TFPW: Just because some daft bint with a title messed your head around is no reason to reject the Mahayana teachings, any more than Jim Jones is a reason to reject Christianity. If your knowledge of Mahayana is vast, you have doubtless read Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation and/or Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara which answer this question in great detail.
Well, leaving aside the trollworthiness of this claim: Read Candrakirti's Madhamakavatara for the description of the dashabhumi. Completely buddhist, completely Indian. There is no difference in the bodhisattva teachings in Tibet. This text is foundational. According to this schema, the samadhi of a 1st bhumi bodhisattva exceeds that of a stream-enterer. I would have to dig out the text for details, if you care.
[...]
Bodhisattvas who attain the first ground are now Aryas or Superiors, for they can never relapse into the states of ordinary beings. This ground of the Mahayana is said to correspond, by analogy, to the eighth Arya level of the Hinayana (that of "Stream Enterer abiding by the result"). This is according to a scheme [see note] that counts the state of "Arhat abiding by the result" as the first level, and proceeds in reverse order through the level of "candidate for arhatship," and so on, to that of
Stream Enterer abiding by the result."
[...from the notes...]
(1) Stream Enterer. The Shravakas who abide in the understanding of the fifteen instants of the path of seeing, as described in the Hinayana Abhidharma, and the Shravakas who abide by the path of joining and the fifteen instants of the path of seeing, as described in the Mahayana Abhidharma, are all candidates for the degree of Stream Enterer. When they reach the sixteenth instant of the path of seeing, they become Stream Enterers who abide by the result. They are called Stream Enterers because they enter the stream of the path whereby they will attain the result.
Ok.
Cheers, WK
Bodhisattva doesn't have to described in such a complexed way, I am sure even Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva started as a deluded human being like all of countless Kalpas ago.
Bodhisattva is:
Humanistic Buddhism is the bodhisattva way; to be an energetic, enlightened, and endearing person who strives to help all sentient beings liberate themselves and to transform our world into a Pure Land of peace and bliss. We direct our efforts towards purifying our minds and bodies, right here and now in the present moment. Humanistic Buddhism stresses the purification of life through ethical thought and the elevation of both mind and spirit. If you believe in the law of cause and effect, and practice it in your life, then the law of cause and effect is Humanistic Buddhism. If you believe in compassion, and practice it in your life, then compassion is Humanistic Buddhism.
Ahh, but if you used English translations then I would know what you're talking about without Wiki-ing everything.
Cheers, WK
@Madhamakavatara
Don't worry, before reading this next... I will like the Chinese empire to disappear.
And what distinguishes this from Humanism other than a modifier?
But I guess the difference is that all Humanistic Buddhists still practice all the traditional methods such as Sutra reciting, meditations, Dharma functions and Mantra recitations.
Making practical actions small and practical while not turning back to well practiced beneficial traditions.
What do you mean by this Vincenzi?
a meditator has to feel comfortable in the himalaia.
as member of a brahmin class, i can force this by any means.
however, I Will Prefer Not to Use Militar Means.
"vipassana" meditation is teravada hocus pocus.
'will prefer not to use / Frænthir, Asura Slayer / in this life...
Relative Bodhicitta is something we all strive to be - a good person, living in samsara, but flawed and imperfect. Pretty much as you've described. A person who has taken the Bodhisattva Vows can initially only attain relative bodhicitta. Absolute Bodhicitta is the final destination.
Absolute Bodhicitta is also known as Buddhahood or enlightenment. A being who has achieved Absolute Bodhicitta, a Bodhisattva, can decide to be reborn or not, and can decide which sphere to be reborn in. He does this for the benefit of beings. Although he lives in samsara, he no longer suffers. Being awakened, he is equally content living in samsara or a hell or a realm of deities like the Pure Land. His external environment no longer affects him.
So in short, a Bodhisattva is basically a buddha by another name.
nice... basically a forsenagåmi by other name.
is the skill to choose a destination in rebirth only available to Bodhisattva's, or is it available also to a srotapanna?
a srotapanna is someone that will be only reborn 7 more times, at most, in a human'oid realm or better.
a sakadagami will be reborn at most 1 more time, as a human'oid.
an anågami will not be reborn as a human'oid, but will be reborn in the sudavasa abodes (where only anågami's reside)... until acchieving nirvåna.
and this is when i disagree... the final stage is arahant; for me arahant is a silent buddha... and my goal is (samyak) buddha.
He may choose to be reborn many times, but of course this is only from our perspective: as an enlightened being, he knows that samsara is an illusion and although he chooses to share in it with it, he is not shackled by it.
whatever tradition you follow, "sono (yes, in italian... because it is possible to write it without "me, io, I") an anågami bodhisattva (forsenagåmi; a bodhisattva who may or not return)
One of the most 'famous' Bodhisattvas is Chenrezig (or Avalokiteshvara, as he is also known), the Compassion Buddha. Another is Buddha Amitabah, who is the Buddha of the Pure Land. There's a load of them in Tibetan practice, representing different aspects of the dharma.
But I agree, you find similar teachings in other traditions, albeit from slightly different perspectives.
what about Maitreya? 'don't like some messian'istic aspects of this figure in someones' minds.
.
Sorry for replying so late, been away from the computer a lot lately. I don't completely disagree, but I think there is an element where the Boddhisattva knows the truth, but doesn't completely believe, or has some doubt as to what they know, or the realisation of the truth fluctuates, or falsely believe in self-conceitedness (even though they have seen truly). The reason for this is that emptiness is so much a part of normal reality that its been said that it is "too close" to us. After all our natural existence is already emptiness now, even before any learning or meditation! From books that I've read, it has been stated that an arya has seen the truth but there is still a progression from this state to full Buddhahood, otherwise there would be nothing beyond the first Bhumi, that would be the final destination, mind you this is merely a logical argument and logic is limited in relation to these things. An arya has achieved the ability to be liberated (through knowing voidness) whereas a Buddha is enlightened. Here there is a distinction between liberation and enlightenment. Liberation entails removal of the emotional veils and Enlightenment entails the removal of the conceptual veils. Basically an arya is someone who can enter paranirvana, yet dedicates, with joy, their entire existence to the removal of suffering in all living beings - that's certainly something beyond measure to aspire to, of course if you no longer fear death then its a lot easier!
Cheers, WK
and doesn't fear death because; it is just a "change in residence" and can voluntarily chose viharas (lit.: residences).
A great article I found online and self-realization called 'What It Means To Be Self-Realised' explains this further, can be found on socyberty.com or following URL http://socyberty.com/advice/what-it-means-to-be-self-realized/