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Karma
Floating_Abu
Veteran
Elsewhere I saw someone write that they would leave someone to their own karma. They would not make an active move to stop this person from ill-doing.
But I think this is a mistaken notion of karma. Karma is what we all see, and are. There is no way that it is not shared. The butterfly flapping its wings affects cycles halfway across the world. The missile in North Korea affects people and those people affect others, affect others...A smile to another affects their mood, affects their behaviour to the husband to the wife, ad infinitum the chains are lit. Always.
We all contribute to, and produce what is in indetermine, infinitive ways. It is said only a Fully Awakened Buddha can know the inner workings and results of karma.
But karma is also non-action, non-doing, for in choosing not to do something, we already have an effect. To think one is not doing anything or letting things be...well this is our karma.
Tosh perhaps but
But I think this is a mistaken notion of karma. Karma is what we all see, and are. There is no way that it is not shared. The butterfly flapping its wings affects cycles halfway across the world. The missile in North Korea affects people and those people affect others, affect others...A smile to another affects their mood, affects their behaviour to the husband to the wife, ad infinitum the chains are lit. Always.
We all contribute to, and produce what is in indetermine, infinitive ways. It is said only a Fully Awakened Buddha can know the inner workings and results of karma.
But karma is also non-action, non-doing, for in choosing not to do something, we already have an effect. To think one is not doing anything or letting things be...well this is our karma.
Tosh perhaps but
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Comments
Kamma is Volitional Action and has positive, negative and neutral results.
A butterfly flapping its wings has the effect of making it fly, but the effect of the kamma is neutral, it is a neither positive nor negative action. it is movement.
As to the actions and kamma of others, all this is convoluted speculation, which before one can ever understand it comprehensively, would actually drive us insane, so there is little or no point in considering the actuons and consequences of other people.
Correct. therefore , this,
We all contribute to, and produce what is in indetermine, infinitive ways.
is complete hypothesis and speculation. You may well be right. Equally, you might not be.
Kamma is volitional. If you do something, you create kamma.
If you do nothing, you are still doing something.
Therefore there is Kamma there, also.
Non-action is a misnomer.
Non-doing is also a misnomer.
"They also serve who only stand and wait".
They also do something, who also appear to be doing nothing.....
Tosh perhaps but
I'm a bit puzzled here. Say my brother is going to hit my sister. I step in the way to prevent him from hurting her not so much as to deter his attack but to deflect it off my sister. That's an active move and there is clearly intention in my action. But the intention is a bit complex, as it's not immediately clear to me what motivates my action more: my distaste for my brother's aggression towards my sister or my desire to shield my sister from harm. In fact, it seems almost instinctual rather than volitional, although I do intend the welfare of my sister and the non-aggression of my brother.
True the above hypothetical seems to presuppose a blank slate where nobody knows anyone and nobody has made any promises to uphold certain virtues or protect certain interests. But, I ask, does life ever hand us a hand quite that bland?
To me, leaving somebody to be harmed and pinning all the blame on a certain "perpetrator" diminishes me... I am part of the victim and part of the perp, too. So may I not "talk to myself" in this matter?
Well if you want to play the theoretical game, Fede, this is what the Buddha had to say:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."
"Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.
If you want to look at it differently, karma is all that is witnessed, all that happens. By body, speech and intellect is this world formed and does it move. Thusly, the movement is also karma.
Well you appear to be refuting against yourself since no-one said that people should consider the karma of others. In fact, the Buddha called that one of the imponderables. I don't know what you are arguing against actually.
Everything is dependent on everything else. Likewise everything has a link to everything else. The oxygen in the air, the wind in the trees, the air you breathe, the clothes you wear, the way you interact with others, their mood and how they talk to their loved ones, the TV screen and its effect on you and your beliefs, the political system, your bank account,- The fact is everyone and everything has a link in this world and the interdependence of all is obvious. And in these ways we all contribute to and produce WHAT IS. If you deny that is the case, then that is your call.
Your statement seems more like a blanket attack than anything of substance though, Fede. The statement, "You may well be right. Equally, you might not be." is an interesting one, which could be said of this whole forum and all its participants and topics, including the Buddha. You seem to want to zero in but if you wish to, perhaps some courtesy would be due.
What is your point? Karma is intention, as the Buddha taught. Intention is how will is aroused, and in the will, there is the world of activity. Again you seem to be arguing against something not said.
I think you are arguing against yourself or did not understand my original post, Fede. That was my point. When you do nothing you are also doing something and there is also an effect. Perhaps you might re-read the post next time before you start your arguments.
Abu
Of course.
_/\_ It was a light post, Nirvana. I see nothing wrong with what you said and if anything, I agree, life does not always give us a bland hand.
My post was not intended to suggest analysis of anyone's intentions and the effects, the Buddha called that one of the four imponderables, and rightly so.
I was more observing someone's observation that by not doing anything they were leaving the other 'to their karma' when I don't think things are that simple. At least this is my view.
_/\_
Abu
This seems right to me.
I think it's a cop-out to say that you're leaving someone to their own karma and to refuse to do anything either to help them steer clear of bad actions or deflect potential victims from the trajectory of their deeds. To me, this attitude smacks either of apathy or of willfullness. Apathy, on the one hand, is not without intent; the intent is to cut oneself off from processes, people, and consequences regardless of possible ramifications. And on the other hand, such willfullness (or insistence on a narrow view of things) seems heavy laden with the intent to live on a separate and remote plane of existence from those we see living around us.
Our being does not end at our fingertips. Nor does our karma. The interbeing that Thich Nat Hanh talks about (dependent co-arising) is truer and deeper than any action we may undertake. Indeed, arguably it is the prime force behind our thinking and willing and striving (our intent).
I know the sound of a full cup when I hear one.
Our being does not end at our fingertips. Nor does our karma.
It's all shared. When you throw a sphere at someone else, we are only doing it to ourself. We will all share in this karma that we have created together. The sooner we learn to detect and clarify our own ill will to anyone in this world, the better, I think. It is not an easy path this self-learning and clarification. It is hard indeed.
Thankyou for your wise words, Nirvana. Thankyou to you and I am grateful to the path of Dharma.
We have shared responsibility. The lives of all sentient beings are interwoven inextricably, but.....the Buddha made it clear that in his system karma and karma vipaka are always that of an individual consciousness stream. Dependant Arising ( the "co" bit is a later addition ) is the action of the individual and happens within individual consciousness as the result of individual Ignorance ( avidya ) which is the way that the arising individual consciousness stream reacts to arising conditions by definition. It is avidya which gives rise to the sense of "I"..See the Twelve Nidanas.
Just briefly then, let us look at some theory if that is how you prefer it.
Karma is intention, by intention, we act through speech, body and intellect.
Karma vipaka are the results of karma. It is said that the workings are so complex and deep that only a FULLY Awakened Buddha can know it, it is one of the clearly four listed imponderables advised by the Buddha not to be thought about lest one go..well a waste of time and perhaps not healthy and likely wrong for a person.
Consciousness is one of the five skhandas obviously, through eye contact and form, eye consciousness is formed etc etc through the skhandhas. As Ajahn Sumedho once meditated on, is what the eye sees and what sees different or not? Well that is another level of practice althogether and not one for a public forum (lest one get shelled perhaps lol) Nevertheless as what is seen and sees is not different, what you see and whom you interact with is also none other than yourself.
Karma in one sense is of course your own because through intention, and through the workings of your particular mindset, you come to action/thought/speech in this world. But also -try shouting at someone and see if that affects their mindset and what they say back to you, and your environment, etc ad infiniteum. That is why karma is also a matter of responsibility. Taking responsibility is caring not only for yourself but for the wider world with an eye to your effects, only compassion can do this job effectively. And karma is very important in this regard. We can only try...
You care about the words used, Citta since you recognise 'shared responsibility' and 'interwoven extricably' but if that is your battle, then perhaps I will not be too interested. We all share the karma of this world. As my reactions and words contribute to your next ones, so too is this a link - you form your own karma, even as you are also influenced by it, and even as you are influenced by everything else in your environment including my words. Do you see? It's not a one stop shop. Ultimately though yes it is each our own responsibility. One can do word play but the Buddha's teachings do not contradict this reality.
In addition, I think your argument is interesting. Kamma vipaka is individual? Remember it is the results of karma. You think that whatever you do in this world is only affecting yourself? I think that by posting here, you are sharing your karma (intention and through intention your actions by body, speech and mind) right here with us all. If you don't see it this way, that's cool absolutely.
Take care,
Abu
PS Here is Dependent Origination, its links are clear, although you seem to be conflating arguments together:
I can only suggest that you run your arguments past a Buddhist teacher that you know and trust IN PERSON and be prepared to have your mental constructs that you have substituted for Dhamm dismantled. And I guarantee that they will be. You quote Ajahn Sumedho. I suggest that you put to one of his successors what you have postulated here, and I have absolutely no doubt at all that they will correct your understanding. And without putting too much of a point on it I am in position to know...
There is no fight here. You can take a horse to water....etc.
PS I am there often enough, as credibility seems important to you. Effects of karma are not only individual, ultimately. That you seem certain that this is deconstructed is your own understanding so please don't speak on behalf of teachers when you are also not one at all. If it makes you happy, I can say I am wrong though, the teachings are there to be seen and practiced, and teachers abound in this little Universe of ours, some can have genuine insight. Blessings on your own path.
And my understanding is not my own. It is that of my teacher Luang Por Chah.
BTW Karma Vipaka is not the " result " of Karma...which is indeed imponderable.
It is the " fruit" of Karma. This is not a matter of semantics ...it is a vital difference. The fruit of Karma is specific to a particular act. The Buddha used the term advisedly. When we plant an apple seed an apple results, not an indeterminate general mass of foliage. An understanding of the links or Nidanas as they arise from Avidya is essential in order to understand the rest of the links of causation. This is not a collective phenomenon. It happens within the consciousness of the observer...thus giving rise to the idea of a seperate ego. If it were not an individual response the ego sense would not arise.
Thanks for the discussion anyway, be well. Bye.
Believing it is your own karma is also a way to take responsibility for your own life and let others take responsibility for theirs. Another skillful means.
Karma is a relative truth. A skillful means to liberate from other wrong views and practice compassion. It is like 'the sun rises in the east' might let us know something useful (particularly if we are lost). But the sun doesn't really rise in the east and east itself is merely mentally labeled and a convention.
Karma is not the ultimate truth.
You want to point out Dependent Origination, it is a most marvellous teaching and one that is necessary in our school. Thankyou for pointing it out and again, I meant no offence for anything. Best wishes.
Jeffrey, Leonard rocks.
and my apologies for any caused by me.
with Metta..
Thankyou very kindly.
Abu
Once my wife met a woman through her work who was undergoing a "spiritual" phase of her life and she gave her a fridge magnet that said: "Change your mind and you change your world". My wife was a little shocked when I said to her that was wrong. A better statement would be: "Change your mind and you change the world". If I'm getting the message of your original post, I think that's sort of what you meant. We affect everyone around us by the way we think, speak and act and through those we affect and change the world. After all, isn't that what the Buddha did?
Certainly nobody is able to prevent all harmful actions in those around them, but to me the Buddhist path is an active one. To the extent that we are capable, we should prevent more negitive actions from entering the world.
Indeed, volitional non-action is part of the Noble Eightfold Path.
Thanks Vangelis. Have a great Christmas too. Namaste.