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So... Death...

ZaylZayl Veteran
edited November 2010 in Philosophy
Let's kick this death thread into a slightly different gear shall we? (or at least, slightly different for me)

Our ultimate goal is to end the cycle of suffering, death, and rebirth, yes? So what happens when that time finally comes? please be aware this is purely hypothetical, so let's just pretend that what I am trying to explain, is so.

Every single being in the universe has managed to end the cycle, does that mean extinction of all life everywhere, since nothing is being reborn? What happens to enlightened beings after they die? do they just cease to exist? After all, to me non-existence is the deepest form of peace there can be. I'm sure these questions are addressed somewhere, and have probably been answered here before. But I just find myself curious, is all.

And you wouldn't deny my curiosity would you? my ulcer is bad enough as it is :lol:

Comments

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2010
    I'm sure these questions are addressed somewhere

    Actually, these questions are the questions that the Buddha does not address.
    my ulcer is bad enough as it is
    Trying to get answers to these questions will make it even worse. :lol:
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    edited November 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    Actually, these questions are the questions that the Buddha does not address.

    Trying to get answers to these questions will make it even worse. :lol:
    Ha! well damn then. did he at least address why he didn't address these questions? or did he avoid them entirely?

    my apologies if I'm asking too many questions, I just finished my morning meditation and I like to challenge myself (and others, who choose to take part) by asking questions that are difficult or impossible to answer, and seeing what comes up. It's all about shaking up that conventional way of thinking, you see.

    EDIT- also burned halfway through a pot of coffee already, that might explain some things.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Zayl wrote: »
    Our ultimate goal is to end the cycle of suffering, death, and rebirth, yes? So what happens when that time finally comes?

    It is impossible to describe the nature of Nirvana through words or any form of expression.
    Every single being in the universe has managed to end the cycle, does that mean extinction of all life everywhere, since nothing is being reborn?

    There is no beginning and no end to Samsara, and for time eternal there shall be living sentience bound by suffering and desire. As such, there is an infinite number of living beings.
    What happens to enlightened beings after they die? do they just cease to exist? After all, to me non-existence is the deepest form of peace there can be.

    Once again, Nirvana cannot be described through any form of expression. It is both existence and non-existence, as well as niether existence nor not-existence. It is beyond all conceptual faculties and impossible to express.

    These questions, although common and thought-provoking, will most likely lead to suffering, as the concept of death and passing away is a delusion created by the sense of self. With enlightenment there is no coming and no going, there is not-self and there is the end of death and suffering. It is best to focus more upon the path to your awakening than to play with illusions.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2010
    "It's not the case that when there is the view, 'After death a Tathagata exists,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now.

    "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

    "And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

    "And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.
  • ArtemisArtemis
    edited November 2010
    Zayl wrote: »
    Every single being in the universe has managed to end the cycle, does that mean extinction of all life everywhere, since nothing is being reborn?

    Maybe, but then maybe that would just lead to the beginning of a new universe, a new cycle...like that Douglas Adams quote: "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."
    Zayl wrote: »
    And you wouldn't deny my curiosity would you? my ulcer is bad enough as it is :lol:

    Ugh, I'm sorry you have one of those..my grandfather had one. I hope it's at least somewhat manageable.
  • compassioncompassion
    edited November 2010
    Holding now a book "Is there life after death" by Anthony Peake.
    In the book, consciousness exists as an eternal thing.

    If consciousness ceases to perceive, it loses prejudice/desire/attachment completely.
    If consciousness ceases to not perceive, it goes into the Middle Way. A path where two extremities are not recognized, and the true One Way.

    It is indeed the highest level, yet paradoxically, the most central way to approach reincarnation of consciousness.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Seeker; There we go! that's more of what I was looking for, Thank you.
  • TheDoctorDonnaTheDoctorDonna
    edited November 2010
    Is not the correct response to that "42", at least thats what the Hitchhickers guide says.
  • ArtemisArtemis
    edited November 2010
    No, that's the Answer. To really grok it all, you have to know the Question. Which may or may not be a Dylan lyric.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Enlightenment in no way, shape or form changes the natural recycling of all energy/matter into new temporary forms. It is only a transformation of mind, of perspective, that ceases the arising of unwholesome mental states and suffering. There's no mystical or supernatural aspect to it that is not born of ignorance and clinging.

    Everything that comprises what you believe to be "you" will return to the world and become new things, ad infinitum, as it must or else the entire interdependent system would fail to function. The question is whether or not you want to alleviate your suffering and the suffering of others; not whether you can or would remove something permanently from existence.

    Most of our heads are in the clouds, thinking about that "I" that isn't really anything special. :)

    So to answer your question... don't worry about it. The universe isn't subject to us or anything we do -- it, the Dharma, will continue.
  • finding0finding0 Veteran
    edited November 2010
    If you would like to see (not necessarily recommended) try dmt. I have used it several 100s of times. It will put the unexplainable in perspective. Again I am not recommending it to you. It is what I have personally done in my path
  • ArtemisArtemis
    edited November 2010
    finding0 wrote: »
    If you would like to see (not necessarily recommended) try dmt. I have used it several 100s of times. It will put the unexplainable in perspective. Again I am not recommending it to you. It is what I have personally done in my path

    ...? Is "dmt" some kind of meditation technique?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Dextromethorphan, AKA Dex/DMT, is a cause of significant brain damage and is not something a Buddhist should consider. Someone very close to me has been greatly affected by this drug; please don't even suggest such foolishness to others, finding0. It has nothing to do with our path or anything else, any more than LSD. Thank you.
  • PietroPumokinPietroPumokin
    edited November 2010
    Talisman wrote: »

    There is no beginning and no end to Samsara, and for time eternal there shall be living sentience bound by suffering and desire. As such, there is an infinite number of living beings.
    :hair:
  • finding0finding0 Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Cloud wrote: »
    Dextromethorphan, AKA Dex/DMT, is a cause of significant brain damage and is not something a Buddhist should consider. Someone very close to me has been greatly affected by this drug; please don't even suggest such foolishness to others, finding0. It has nothing to do with our path or anything else, any more than LSD. Thank you.
    You are thinking of the wrong substance.Dextromethorphan is DXM aka caugh syrup and it fries your liver and brain. Dmt is dimethyltryptamine. The spirit molecule. It is released into the brain during deep meditation. It is very safe. causes no damage. has been used by shamans for thousands of years. Has done nothing but good for me. Turned me from a very bad person to who i am now. I know it is not a buddhist thing to take substances. that is why i did not recommend it. i simple was expressing my experience

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhEj314cmLw&feature=related

    Again I do not recommend it to those who follow buddhism but it is something to know about
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    My apologies. I guess it must be DXT that's the acronym for the drug!
  • finding0finding0 Veteran
    edited November 2010
    no worries I still love you:)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    :)
  • VangelisVangelis
    edited November 2010
    Hmmm... I seem to remember that in the Pali suttas the Buddha refused to answer the question of whether all beings will attain nibbana but I can't seem to find the reference at the moment.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited November 2010
    Vangelis wrote: »
    Hmmm... I seem to remember that in the Pali suttas the Buddha refused to answer the question of whether all beings will attain nibbana but I can't seem to find the reference at the moment.


    I'm not familiar with the sutta you mention, however this about speculation and views and is worth reading :-

    This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?

    Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?'

    Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

    "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity.

    This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

    MN 2 : Sabbasava Sutta
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