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Breeding feeder animals...
I felt like I was flooding the forum with my questions, so I used the search function at first. I found a very helpful thread on feeding mice to snakes, however, it focused mainly on buying pre-killed "units" (as in, not breeding or killing them yourself) and the consensus seemed to be that it was just like purchasing meat for yourself or buying dog food.
I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on breeding food for one's pets, and pre-killing the animal yourself.
Now, I have a leopard gecko and a snake. Currently, I breed mealworms for my gecko. In the past, I bred mice for my snake. College now limits my time to clean rodent cages, so I had to stop breeding them...the breeders are still around though, and still active despite their old age. I currently get my mice from a friend who also breeds them.
I choose to breed mealworms for my gecko because I felt that it was nutritionally better for him, as well as a more enriching life for the bugs (if it's possible to enrich a bugs life...
). They are fed the fruit/vegetable scraps from my meals, coated with vitamin supplements that will benefit my gecko after the bugs are consumed. In pet stores, the mealworms are usually not even fed, which I feel is not only cruel to the bugs but is unhealthy for my pet. They are fed to my gecko live, but he disposes of them pretty quickly.
When I bred mice for my snake, it was because I love mice (I had 4 pet mice when I was a child and they were my best friends
) so much that I hated to see how pet store feeder mice are treated. Like the bugs, they seem to not be fed very often and are skin and bones. The mice in my care were treated as pets, with their offspring being fed to my snake. I always left them until weaning age so as to ensure that the mom didn't get mastitus (sp?) from not having anywhere for her milk to go. I euthanized the babies via cervical dislocation (they must have been too small to use the CO2 method...it always took forever when I tried 
). Again, the mice I bred had lives like pet mice..I kept toys in the cages, I fed them treats, and made sure they were fat and happy 24/7.
So, in short, although I killed them for food for my reptiles, the feeder animals in my care are given the same quality of life as the animals they are fed to receive.
Yes, I acknowledge that if I didn't keep carnivorus animals, than I wouldn't need to kill other animals for them. Yes, I acknowledge that killing is a violation of the first precept.
I am very interested in everyone else's thoughts on this.
I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on breeding food for one's pets, and pre-killing the animal yourself.
Now, I have a leopard gecko and a snake. Currently, I breed mealworms for my gecko. In the past, I bred mice for my snake. College now limits my time to clean rodent cages, so I had to stop breeding them...the breeders are still around though, and still active despite their old age. I currently get my mice from a friend who also breeds them.
I choose to breed mealworms for my gecko because I felt that it was nutritionally better for him, as well as a more enriching life for the bugs (if it's possible to enrich a bugs life...
). They are fed the fruit/vegetable scraps from my meals, coated with vitamin supplements that will benefit my gecko after the bugs are consumed. In pet stores, the mealworms are usually not even fed, which I feel is not only cruel to the bugs but is unhealthy for my pet. They are fed to my gecko live, but he disposes of them pretty quickly.When I bred mice for my snake, it was because I love mice (I had 4 pet mice when I was a child and they were my best friends
) so much that I hated to see how pet store feeder mice are treated. Like the bugs, they seem to not be fed very often and are skin and bones. The mice in my care were treated as pets, with their offspring being fed to my snake. I always left them until weaning age so as to ensure that the mom didn't get mastitus (sp?) from not having anywhere for her milk to go. I euthanized the babies via cervical dislocation (they must have been too small to use the CO2 method...it always took forever when I tried ). Again, the mice I bred had lives like pet mice..I kept toys in the cages, I fed them treats, and made sure they were fat and happy 24/7.So, in short, although I killed them for food for my reptiles, the feeder animals in my care are given the same quality of life as the animals they are fed to receive.
Yes, I acknowledge that if I didn't keep carnivorus animals, than I wouldn't need to kill other animals for them. Yes, I acknowledge that killing is a violation of the first precept.
I am very interested in everyone else's thoughts on this.
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Comments
It sounds like having a snake is more important to you than keeping the first precept.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
Hmmm... well, my snake is very important to me. I love her very much (although I am very sure she does not love me, haha). I am merely curious if I can keep a snake and breed food for it, without horrific karmic consequences. I am debating whether or not to go back to breeding her food, or to just start looking for a feeder dealer that treats its stock better. I already have the snake, there's no point in giving her up just because of her diet. I've had the snake since I was 16. My dilemma is breeding feeders vs. buying feeders.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
You see, as a kid, I was bullied severely by my peers. Unfortunately, the school did nothing, except punish me for trying to defend myself. I was sent to the hospital after one attack in the lunchroom in 7th grade on one occasion. I was targeted after school as well, I even had to deal with kids lighting me on fire. I have severe burn scars on my left arm to remind me of this.
I was kind of a geek, and I liked to learn about animals. I felt a connection with snakes and lizards and other reptiles, because no one seems to like them very much. I felt that, since no one seemed to like me very much either, perhaps I can be the one person who likes them (keep in mind I was a child, this is how children think).
I suppose it carried over into adulthood..though I am a young adult (19). I now have friends and a job and of course my academic career, and other interests as well, but I have always remained fond of those scaly creatures that kept me sane during those middle school/ early high school years. Now I am a somewhat well-adjusted young woman, but I still like to keep reptiles.
Perhaps a better option would be to purchase the feeders instead of breeding them to protect my karma? I can't just turn the animals out of my apartment, no one will care for them as well as I do.
To answer your question about karmic consequences, I seem to recall that the Buddha taught that you can't shuffle off responsibility for your actions by getting someone else to have red hands.
You like venison? You might as well hunt yourself as buy it in a store; it's about the same. This is my interpretation.
On the other hand, it's not an iron-clad law. On my part, if someone provides me with meat (which I quite enjoy eating), I'll eat it; but I won't ask for it or buy it. There's a story of the Buddha eating horse meat when it was given to him.
In my set of beliefs, it would be better for you personally to kill them yourself. Apologize to each animal before you kill it, and say a prayer for it to have a benefitial reincarnation. This is not ideal, but it's better than buying an animal in order to perpetuate willful ignorance.
Please understand I claim no authority here; I do not "speak for" karma. This is just the best answer I can give you with what I believe and what you've explained.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
Perhaps, after my snake passes away and my gecko passes away (which won't be for awhile, the gecko has at least 8 years left and the snake probably has another 15), I will not purchase any more reptiles. I will try to find a way to appreciate them in the wild, and keep them in my apartment only in the form of photographs and sketches. Then I will not need to feel uneasy about their diets
In the meantime, I will continue to breed mealworms and (since my rodent cages are occupied by the now-geriatric retired breeder-mice that I haven't the heart to feed to the snake) I will purchase the mice from the best dealer possible, and humanely euthanize them myself. I do not enjoy killing, ever...it's just necessary when keeping these kinds of creatures. I do not know the proper procedures for praying in buddhism... do you know of any online resources that can help me with this?
Although, that would solve a few moral issues with feeding them...thank you for pointing this out
No, I don't. Perhaps someone can direct you to an authoritative, qualified source. But this is what has been effective in my experience:
I address myself to the Lord of Compassion. This is a habit I started some time ago, when I was an atheist. My idea at that time was that, although there was no actual Personage listening to me, it would help me to become a better person if I imagined there was such a Lord, who I could talk to.
But on the other hand, although I was an atheist, I was cautious (or superstitious): since I didn't know what name I should use for the person I was praying to, I decided to use a description. This on the theory that whoever did answer the phone would be as I described (and it was more important to me to key on compassion than on any one name).
But then at some point he started answering prayers, which really spooked me. It's a long story. I don't exactly call myself a Buddhist yet, because I don't understand the religion well enough; but based on what I've experienced... Anway, now I use "Lord of Compassion," because it's what always worked; but I also use "Buddha."
So, address yourself mentally to the Buddha, if you are a Buddhist. And explain simply and honestly what's on your mind: what you are feeling, what your problem is, and what you would like him to do. Then, with your heart, push that thought out into the Universe.
Use language properly to give your prayer precision; use passionate, ardent, loving desire to give it power. Metta meditation was the practice I was doing a lot of when I started getting spooky results.
According to some accounts I've read, you would in effect be asking the Buddha to give some of your merit ("good karma") to the mouse, to ensure it had a benefitial rebirth. This means you'll have a little less yourself, which might also suggest you practice metta. I hear it's builds merit.
In general, you can ask the Buddha to take care of the mouse. Also to take care of you; and anyone.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
I do not believe you killing the mice is giving you more bad karma than a mother cooking meat for her children. Someone still killed that meat and she bought it. So you should consider it from a logical point of view rather than a religious one. That we all need to eat.
Many of our reptile pets that were born in captivity cannot survive in the wild. They wouldn't have a chance. The albinos are a good example, but yet with proper care an albino ball python can live up to 30 years in captivity. So maybe they appreciate you for the effort that you put into keeping them alive, and keeping them content, and perhaps that should give you good karma.
I myself keep a bearded dragon, and have kept many types of pets through out my life. She eats about 30 reptiworms a day with salad and meaty pellets that have chicken and other vitamins. Eventually I have the intention to breed a colony of dubia for her. It will be cheaper for me that way.
The reason why you wouldn't breed and kill little animals as a Buddhist is not fearing bad karma - the karmic effect being very minute in this case - but out of compassion for the animals. I'm sure you will realize this as you practice more
I totally understand. I think I was in my late 20s and started having children before my 'zoo' started to thin out. Birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, rodents, mammals etc. My home stunk to high heaven I had so many critters.
Totally understand. Are you yet emotionally distant enough from the horrific and inexcusable abuse you suffered both at the hands of your peers, but also the uncaring and irresponsible adult authority figures to be ready to move beyond it? Don't make light of this abuse, it completely warps a person's healthy development and requires a lot of inner work to really heal from it. Abuse during the formative years leaves hidden scars that can affect us for life if we don't do this inner work. Even with this inner work done we are forever different than we would have been without this abuse. The good news is we can use this (once the inner work of healing and forgiving is done) to become far more understanding and compassionate than we otherwise may have been. We can deeply relate to and empathize with those who experience similar abuse.
You have made a commitment and you feel an obligation to honor it. So be it. Feed them as they require, it's your responsibility. If your own conscience would feel less assaulted feeding them food killed by others then do this, but ultimately they are your responsibility so you must provide for them in your care or find another home for them or release them into the wild, but only in an environment to which they are native. It's your call.
I think the bigger issue here is your finding a way to heal from the abuse you experienced. If you do not you will be affected by it the rest of your life and in ways you won't even realize until it's too late. You may say you are healed from the abuse, but if you were, you wouldn't have been likely to bring it up at all.
Metta to all sentient beings
The Buddha encouraged us to think for ourselves. Take what is useful to us and discard what isn't. And in this case it's not at all about being cruel. I would say this girl in particular is one of the most compassionate people on this board. It takes a special person to breed insects for a reptile, raise mice for a snake, and take care of them the best way possible until they're used as food. It takes an even more extraordinary person to euthanize the mice yourself to save your snake the possibility of getting injured.
At the core of these actions are the intentions of a very kind and brave caretaker. They're caring for their animal that they wish to give the best possible husbandry to, and they're brave for doing the dirty work themselves. Those are noble and hard to find qualities among most people.
Most people are either cowardice, or too shallow to show respect where it's deserved. They rather buy the meat and veggies without hunting and gathering it themselves and they think they're better than the farmer or the butcher who had to kill to obtain the food. But the reality is, it is the farmer and the butcher who made your meal possible and who should be shown respect.
So if you can take that initiative to get the food yourself, like this girl is doing for her animals, that's a big labor of love. Someone who can go through all the proper procedures to take care of exotic animals, will take even better care of humans.
It is also a myth that all reptiles suffer in captivity. Like I made the example earlier of the albino ball python. This animal could not survive long in the wild. But in captivity it could live 30 years. Ball pythons also love small spaces, they like to be snug inside wherever they can make a comfortable ball formation. And thus the name ball python. Due to this nature of theirs they can naturally be happy in reptile tanks with the proper care.
Ball pythons are a good reptile to keep on several accounts. They only need food once a week. They only poop once a week. They are hypoallergenic. You're more likely to be injured by a cat than a well cared for ball python. They live a long time. A lot of them are very docile in nature. They're easy to handle and slow moving. They like small spaces to curl up in, and don't require much attention. Cleopatra was even known to keep ball pythons as pets to wear on her wrists like jewelry (and yes they were live).
That is just an example, but there are many reptiles that can live happily in captivity under the right conditions. Reptiles have small brains and if they were born in captivity, captivity is all they know. And if they were bred for special colors, their colors are not practical for nature. They would not live a regular or long life in the wild. They would be eaten faster than a nature born reptile.
Metta to all sentient beings
Pigs are very intelligent animals, as much as dogs. Yet despite their intelligence they're bred and often kept in harsh conditions eventually leading to a painful death in the slaughter house. This is just one of many animals that live life with the destiny to be food. And even for those that want to be vegetarians, their food is still responsible for the death of countless bugs and perhaps even rodents.
With this in mind it comes down to the truth that not all sentient beings can be saved. Where there is food there is death. That is the way it has always been in our human society. When man came about they made weapons, hunted their food, and honored their hunts through drawings still found today. This is nature.
Breeding mice, insects, chickens etc for food for our pets is part of human nature. Feeding mice is no different from the the grinded up animals your cats and dogs eat. It is only the way you choose to look at it. Just as comparable to breeding any other live food that humans eat.
What you're claiming is that all reptiles are wild animals from the wild. This is not true, because on that basis then you could release all captive bred reptiles and they would survive in their natural habitat, but that would actually be a quick death sentence for most.
Because the majority of most exotic pets you see today are not taken from the wild. They have been captive bred for many years, many generations. What they know is captivity. If you try to hold a wild reptile compared to a reptile born in captivity that has been bred that way for many generations, you will see a huge difference in behavior.
Wild born reptiles, tend to be very defensive, very aggressive, they have all sorts of traits that captive reptiles don't show. They get very stressed out in their tanks, they get sick easily. A lot of captive bred reptiles on the other hand are actually docile and very calm with humans.
They have got used to humans, and are comfortable in a proper home for them. Like I mentioned the ball python prefers a small space to curl up in, thus the name ball. They also have small brains. All these factors make it possible to live in harmony with reptiles as pets where they can be content. I have seen happy pythons, iguana, bearded dragons as pets. I mean genuinely happy animals that like to be held, and have a large tank that are designed better than most human rooms. It is possible to read the body language of animals.
I have learned the body language of different reptiles. And have seen the differences in wild reptiles compared to captive bred of the same species. It is almost like they're completely different. So I never advocate taking a wild animal from its habitat, but these captive bred reptiles, they're different from the wild born. A lot of them are actually content with what a human can offer them. If they weren't content you would see it in their body language.
They would constantly try to escape, and often try to bite you. A docile reptile that lives many years is one that is not suffering so much. If it is suffering that bad, it becomes defensive, violent, or it dies soon. So nothing is absolute. Believing that captive bred reptiles cannot be kept content in captivity is very close minded.
Ermine, you are not doing a thing wrong by taking care of your snake. Raising the mice to feed it is not a bit different from buying them prekilled or live feeder mice from the shop, and there is nothing wrong with that, either. In fact, you are to be commended in knowing it might make you feel better to buy mice raised in a dirty, crowded cage in the back of a shop, but it would not be the compassionate thing to do. I give you a deep bow.
It's easy for anyone, including Buddhists, to let their own emotions and desire to follow their vows get in the way of remembering the purpose to what we do. No matter how many times we are told that the Precepts are NOT rules, they are guidelines and that bad karma is in the intention, not the action, people still cling to a set of rules and call that Buddhism.
Snakes are marvelous creatures. I had a few as a child, and my grandson has a ball python now that he adores. To those who don't know about something like this as a pet, no it is not a wild animal. These have been raised in captivity for hundreds of generations of snakes. He knows and cares more about the wildlife of the world than most adults, but understands that the circle of life isn't pretty.
According to karma, there is no difference between feeding a fish live meal worms or a snake mice or a cat tuna or yourself a piece of bread. Thousands of mice are killed when the harvester crops a field, you know. It's all intention. If feeding the snake was bad, then giving the snake to someone else to feed would also be bad. Why would you say pushing bad karma onto someone else is the correct thing to do? And no, taking the snake outside and letting it go where it doesn't belong is definitely bad. So what does that leave, starving the snake?
The correct action in this case is to feed the snake as humanely as possible. That's not going to be the popular answer. For the person asking the question, it is the correct Buddhist answer.
We've made a commitment to care for these animals for their entire lives (a gecko isn't just for Christmas), we can't be negligant in our duties just because our beliefs change. Geckos and snakes feed on live animals, it's their nature and we cannot change it. We don't feed them crickets and mealworms because we hate bugs, we do it because that is what our pets need to survive. It's no more an act of cruelty than worming a pet dog, it's just necessary.
I don't know what some other people here expect us to do. We already have the pet, do they expect us to give it to away? If so that doesn't stop the reptiles needing live foods, it's just passing the buck, perhaps to people who wouldn't take any where near as good care of their pet and live foods as we do.
All we can do, if we want to follow the path of Buddhism, is not get any more animals that require live foods when our current ones die.
In the wild a leopard gecko lives for about three years before being eaten by a larger animal. During that time it will spend most of it's life under a rock coming out at dawn and dusk to feed and drink. It will probably lose it's tail as they drop off when grabbed by a predator. It will have parasites, fungal and bacterial infections. And it will be stressed.
What you are doing is called anthropomorphic projection. You are placing what you as a human being believe to be good and healthy onto beings that don't share your perspective. Being wild doesn't always equal being happy, especially in animals that aren't very intelligent. So long as a gecko or a snake has a hole to hide in, food to eat and a warm rock to sit on they are happy. You know when a gecko isn't happy because it'll die, quickly, they literally can't tolerate being stressed.
Very true..I am often surprised when people seem to want to avoid or disregard this fact of corporeal existence.
Yes..! Anthropomorphic projection, that's a good term.
Well these animals are designed to live in the wild, not live in a tank, so is that not nature saying that a wild animal is better in the wild than in a tank.
And are you saying that being captive equals happy ? I don't think any animal likes being a prisoner inside a tank or enclosure. It is attachment to these animalsthat makes it hard for people to just realise that their pet that should be in the wild, is better of in the wild. If you have a reptile etc etc as a pet then of course you cannot just put them back into the wild, because as people have already said, they would just die because they dont know how to survive in the wild. But, if people stopped buying these pets in the first place then they wouldnt be taken from the wild in the first place, and yes I am aware there are a lot of animals which are capative bred, but its still a fact that there is a huge number that still get taken from the wild to be pets.
Metta to all sentient beings
You do have a valid point. Many people who buy exotic pets are not ready for the responsibility of providing a comfortable long term environment. There is still an underground trade in wild caught animals. And, it's not just private collectors. Do some research on the slaughter involved in acquiring performing marine animals for Seaworld type circus companies, if you want to be horrified.
But, many people who buy cats and dogs are not ready for the responsibility, either. Most city animal shelters have given up trying to find homes for abandoned pets and now simply euthanize them as their budgets are slashed. Puppy mills are still legal most places. So do we try to outlaw dogs and cats as pets, or try to educate people on responsible spay and neutering and try to get breeding for profit regulated and enforced?
I wouldn't go out and buy a snake now, because it's an unnecessary complication to my vows. Neither will I take the grandkids to Seaworld, after I found out the hidden side of performing sea mammal trade that my money would support. But, those are my decisions.
They don't realise they are captive, they aren't intelligent enough to recognise the distinction. What makes a small reptile happy is warmth, shelter and food. Yes they need some space to move around, but not as much as you assume.
Precisely the point, you don't think they would like it. The fact is that you're trying to apply your point of view onto creatures that don't have the same priorities that you do. As I already said, if they didn't like it they'd get stressed and die.
Actually in this case it is you who have the attachment, an attachment to an ideal you've ascribed to these animals "they should be wild, they should be free, they'd be happier that way" that isn't necessarily true.
I agree, and after my gecko dies I will not get any more.
If a wild animal needs medical help I am completely in favour of intervening and giving them help, but to actually go out of your way and buy one, well its just not fair on the animal and fuels the demand for more to be taken. As I have said if you already have a wild animal as a pet, or even taken a rescued wild animal into your care, then of course you have to do your best to look after it., but please don't go out and buy another one when it dies, and to be fair you have said you wouldn't, so good on you.
People should face facts, as I said earlier, its peoples own selfish attachment, that make them buy and keep wild animals as pets, it has very little to do with having compassion for them.
Metta to all sentient beings
Which for a leopard gecko is as close to Nirvana as she's going to get.
I've already told you, if you keep reptiles under stressful conditions they get sick and die very quickly. Mine is 13 years old, that's 4 times their life span in the wild, and still bright, alert and inquisitive - all signs of a healthy reptile.
Because their brain is the size of a pepper corn. Plus, in the wild they live under a rock and only venture a few feet outside to find insects to eat. The only difference between living in my terrarium and in the desert of Iraq is that my gecko won't stave to death, be eaten or squished.
Which is why any good reptile keeper keeps handling to a minimum.
Well I believe it is possible to be reborn as an animal, so again I don't agree with.
Was your reptile a captive bred reptile or a wild caught reptile ?
Because I was talking about wild caught reptiles
and locked up, not free to go where it wants
I don't see how that's relevant.
Captive bred. But any stress a wild one would feel would be in the capture and transportation, not the terrarium. Which is why I agree with you that wild animals shouldn't be captured for pets.
Where she wants to go is the nearest dark hole to hide in. Leopard geckos aren't ones for long walks in the country or picnics on the beach, their favourite place to be is curled up in a crevice.
I have not forgotten it, but I accept that it happened and was not pleasant. I am still in counseling for it, but I feel that I came out better than my family thought I would. I go to college. I make my meals. I maintain a social life. I go on dates. I function. In fact, I am determined to function and make something of my life, so that I can prove everyone who told me I would fail wrong. I feel that dwelling on what happened will only delay my progress. Meditation is also proving to be a great tool.
In fact, this abuse is what originally inspired me to seek out buddhism. I want to forgive those who abused me. I want to be at peace with everything. Through counseling, the eightfold path, and meditation, I am confident that one day I will be able to do this. Perhaps I will even be able to help others who experienced what I experienced.