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Shamelessness and no fear of wrongdoing

The_Fruit_Punch_WizaThe_Fruit_Punch_Wiza Veteran
edited December 2010 in Philosophy
If there is an absence of disgust at bodily and verbal misconduct this is an unwholesome state of mind called shamelessness and can also manifest itself as no fear or even pride demonstrated in the face of wrongdoing.

Sometimes this makes me curious, if we don't feel disgust and or fear at wrongdoing then do we think what we're doing isn't wrong or even that wrongdoing is right?

If people won't adhere to the precepts which declare non-harming the way to distinguish right from wrong, then how do you think we can know what is right or wrong without these emotional aversions?

Comments

  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    If you follow the 8FP, then there's little doubt as to what's right and what's wrong in most situations.

    I'd say disgust and shame are an awful indicator of right and wrong. People can feel disgust and shame when it's completely uncalled for. Overall, emotions alone shouldn't be the guide for... well anything really.

    How do we know what's right and what's wrong without emotional cues? I was about to say empathy and mirror neurons, but then realised that's an emotional cue. My second answer is looking at the likely outcome. Reflect on the dangers of your actions. If you're likely to get negative karma for it, then it's wrong, otherwise it's either neutral of good.
    if we don't feel disgust and or fear at wrongdoing then do we think what we're doing isn't wrong or even that wrongdoing is right?
    It's VERY rare for people to do what they think is wrong and think it's the right thing to do. People normally convince themselves that what they are doing is right or for the greater good. Studying Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment is a great way to get insight into how 'good people' do 'wrong things' and how society's roles and power can shape our sense of right and wrong.
  • catweaselcatweasel Explorer
    edited November 2010
    If you are able to discern vocal and bodily disgust,, then perhaps you should look inwardly at yourself. What you reject you must embrace..
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    edited November 2010
    I would say that Buddhism is more concerned about our own behaviour than others. So we should judge ourselves in a way that we consider appropriate, yet we shouldn't use our own judgements on others, as that is just being judgemental.

    So if you feel shamelessness is something to consider then it is good to consider it, but I think it would be harmful to project this outwards as it then becomes just another tool for the ego to discredit others and thereby lead the person involved astray.

    "Look within for your answers" is something that I've read again and again and is probably the most important point in Buddhism.

    Cheers, WK
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Right and Wrong can only be known from discernment. The precepts are to keep us out of trouble as a platform to develope this. Nonetheless buddhists who neglect ethics are harming themselves and others. We are not buddhas yet. If you haven't seen your own faults then just wait ;)
  • The_Fruit_Punch_WizaThe_Fruit_Punch_Wiza Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Oh I've seen! Remember I've asked about them ;)
  • catweaselcatweasel Explorer
    edited December 2010
    expectation is simply rebellion from destiny
  • Ch-an_noobCh-an_noob
    edited December 2010
    "Shamelessness and no fear of wrongdoing" already suggests your not looking at yourself enough if you consider your actions with these words.

    The mind is good at giving excuses for ourselves. We always like to judge and dislike others but will always forgive ourselves for our own defilements.

    Bodhisattvas do not fear wrong doings, they fear not realising wrong doings and stop the cause.
  • The_Fruit_Punch_WizaThe_Fruit_Punch_Wiza Veteran
    edited December 2010
    That's because you ignore your own wrongdoing. That's called shamelessness.
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited December 2010
    emotions make the 8FP shaky. it has to be still, until unmovable point is acchieved.

    i didn't knew, but... we need the 8FP to travel the stream... in a "boat", we will not be swimming this stream.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2010
    From Thich Nhat Hanh's Thundering Silence:
    IN the Sutra on Knowing Better Way to Catch a Snake we read, "if when he considers the six bases for wrong views, a bhiksu does not give rise to the idea of 'I' or 'mine', he is not caught in the chains of this life. Since he is not caught in the chains of this life, he has no fear. To have no fear is to arrive at nirvana. Such a person is no longer troubled by birth and death; the holy life has been lived; what needs to be done has been done; there will be no further births or deaths and the truth of things as they are is known.
    Thich Nhat Hanh explains:

    Here "nirvana" is defined as:
    1. to have realized in practice the teachings of no self ("the holy life has been lived; what needs to be done has been done")
    2. to arrive at right understanding ("the truth of things as they are is known").
    3. to be able to put and end to the cycle of birth and death
    ("Such a person is no longer troubled by birth and death").
    4. To have no fear ("he has no fear")
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited December 2010
    what if a bodhisattva wants to return from the suddhabasa abodes or from arupa-dhatu?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2010
    The question is if you can explain that to a sub?[1] 'hearer'? like me so I can understand.

    Thank you.

    [1] my teacher said becoming a hearer was a wonderful accomplishment
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited December 2010
    what if an anågåmin whises to return before traveling to the sudavasa abodes?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2010
    TP for my bunghole. (can you bring it down a notch....no not as low as I have set the bar)

    <object width="480" height="385">


    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T9_jgKSpA5E?fs=1&hl=en_US&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object>
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2010
    in english with no links CHALLENGE TIME
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited December 2010
    i don't compute Jeff.

    i just proposed a symple project.
    an anågåmin goes to Sudavasa Vihara, and then comes back to help others attain nirvåna.

    my past life was in:

    10) Devas Delighting in Creation (nimmanarati deva)*
    These devas delight in the sense objects of their own creation.

    my next life, i will like it to be here:

    (27) Peerless devas (akanittha deva)
    Fourth jhana. (See, e.g., AN 4.123.)

    (26) Clear-sighted devas (sudassi deva)
    Fourth jhana.

    (25) Beautiful devas (sudassa deva)
    Fourth jhana.

    (24) Untroubled devas (atappa deva)
    Fourth jhana.

    Then, i want to return to this World (Earth) to help in a better way.

    *according to scientific cosmology it was here:
    Pleione_location.png
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