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Emptiness & Non Existence

edited December 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Can anyone please explain emptiness to me and the concept that we don't really exist. Am struggling with this. Can someone suggest a good book which explains it well. I have read Transform Your Life by Gesha Kelsang Gyatso and am still confused!!! Thanks, Wendy

Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Emptiness doesn't mean we don't exist, but that:
    1) we are impermanent and
    2) have no permanent or separate "self" (core/soul)

    That's all that emptiness refers to, these two Buddhist concepts of Impermanence (Anicca) and No-Self (Anatta). It doesn't mean that we don't exist... not by a long shot.

    Rather what arises from the emptiness, the forms and experiences of every day life, Buddhism refers to as "suchness".

    This suchness is the fabric of reality, that we see, touch and experience in every way. It's everything there is, including us. The way that the suchness changes depends on universal laws we call the "Dharma".

    The Dharma includes Impermanence and No-Self mentioned above, as well as Karma (conditionality... cause and effect). What Buddhist teachings are all about is realizing that we are all suffering because of our unrealistic expectations of reality, and the only way to free ourselves is to realize the state of Nirvana (non-clinging to life and its pleasures).

    Here's a site for some good Buddhist resources: http://www.buddhanet.net

    Good luck! :)
  • edited December 2010
    I see, thank you. I think I have maybe taken the readings too literal. This is really helpful, thanks.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited December 2010
    It's easy to do that. :) Any more questions, feel free to ask. That's what we're here for (well, other than any personal searching we're doing ourselves...).
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Love&Peace wrote: »
    I see, thank you. I think I have maybe taken the readings too literal. This is really helpful, thanks.
    You might find this talk (part of this series) helpful. It discusses how to study ancient texts from a modern perspective. Of course, strictly speaking, Gyatso's book is modern, but it comes from a largely premodern perspective.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Love&Peace wrote: »
    Can anyone please explain emptiness to me and the concept that we don't really exist. Am struggling with this. Can someone suggest a good book which explains it well. I have read Transform Your Life by Gesha Kelsang Gyatso and am still confused!!! Thanks, Wendy

    There is another book Geshe-la has written which is a rather good eludication upon Prajnaparamita emptiness Heart of wisdom I admit his books can be rather scholarly and take some time to understand.

    Emptiness, Phenomena appear to us to be truely existant posessing a Self seperate from causes, even if we know this to not be true on a superfical level we still act as if they are existant in the way they appear anyway, Emptiness cuts through this mistaken appearance and helps us realize that all our suffering and problems we grasp at come from this deeply held view that all things exist seperatley from us, By meditating on this view eventually we cut the root of all our suffering.

    Transform your life In the earlier sections is easier to understand however emptiness is always a Difficult concept to grasp at it take some time and more reasoning but you get there in the end :)
  • edited December 2010
    As well as seeing that we are constantly changing and impermanent ourselves, not having any individual parts we can separately label 'self' and therefore being empty of any unchanging something called 'selfness,' we can also examine outer phenomena too and see that nothing has an independent existence. For example when I examine the chair I'm sitting on I can see it doesn't exist independently as 'chair,' its made up of pieces of wood, material, nails etc and these components are changeable and impermanent, not 'chair' and therefore 'empty'.

    Also, the Buddha spoke as follows:

    Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

    "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

    "The ear is empty...
    "The nose is empty...
    "The tongue is empty...
    "The body is empty...
    "The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

    Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."


    ( SN 35.85 Sunna Sutta : Empty)



    Its worth checking the Theravada approach to emptiness. In this article 'Like Oil and Water' by Ajahn Amaro, there's a section 'Emptiness' beginning:
    "We come now to the quality of emptiness. First, it is of some significance to note that although the adjectival noun suññata (Sanskrit: sunyata), or “emptiness,” is used in the Theravada scriptures, it is far outweighed by its humble cousin, the adjective suñña, “empty.”

    In later, Northern Buddhist traditions, sunyata took on not only a central position in the teachings on liberation (for example in the Prajña Paramita Sutras, the Heart Sutra, and the Vajra Sutra) and the Middle Way (as in Nagarjuna’s Madhyamaka philosophy, uniting emptiness and causality), but it also took on the attributes of some kind of quasi-mystical substance or realm—not intentionally or doctrinally even, but more through a subtle and unconscious reification. It became something that is a nothing, that then was worshiped and deified as a universal panacea.

    This is not to say that all such teachings on emptiness are false or useless—not at all. It is just to say that, like any verbal formulation of Dhamma, if grasped incorrectly they can obstruct rather than aid progress on the path. If the concept of emptiness is understood and used as a skillful means, it is clear that it could not be any kind of thing-in-itself. Any tendency to incline the attitude in that direction would thus be seen as falling wide of the mark".

    Continues here: http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article/2148/


    Kind wishes,

    Dazzle
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited December 2010
    You can't step into the same river twice. But you'll still get wet.
  • ManiMani Veteran
    edited December 2010
    I like the approach that Dazzle suggested to ponder on. For me I did the same,and some of the great scholars of the past also recommended to start by taking a look at simple objects, such as the chair that dazzle mentioned, and begin to break it down into smaller parts and then take one of those parts and do the same. It's a god exercise, and at some point you might even examine a single piece of wood, that must have come from a tree at some point, and then you can examine the various conditions that allowed the tree to grow in the first place in order to produce the wood. And on and on.

    The point of this is to demonstrate that "emptiness" is synonymous with "interdependent origination". This is important to realize as you understand more. Though the "chair" is a sum of it's parts which we call a chair, the chair is "dependent" upon these parts in order to be called that. But overall every part is also "dependent" upon other things and factors.

    Another important point to see is that you can't really say that the chair doesn't exist, because it is plain to see that to Dazz that the chair she is sitting in is quite real to her and not just a bunch of particles or whatever.

    I don't want to get to in depth here, but things do exist and function of the "conventional" level. It is advised to just leave it alone on the conventional level. A chair is a chair, it exists and it functions as such. Period.

    When we begin analyzing, this is the "ultimate level". And through analysis, we won't find anything that truly exists from it's own side. As much as we analyze we will find nothing, instead that everything arises, dwells and ceases in dependence upon other causes and conditions.

    I hope this is not too detailed, but it is important to not be pulled into one of the two extremes of "nothing exists" (nihilism), or "eternalism." In fact I've heard many teachers say that most of us, due to not understand the subtleties of this topic actually do still have one of the tenancies.

    Start small, and begin examining some simple things around you, and ponder that for a while.

    M
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Right Mani! "Empty" of inherent self; interdependent. Not nothing or non-existent.

    And so, "suchness" as we call it in Buddhism. :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2010
    It means that we have a nature that is generous and spacious. The spaciousness can also be called emptiness or openness. By opening to a situation whatever it is we can see clearly what is happening and a sensitive response ensues.

    We see a lot so it takes great persistence to keep opening, and it doesn't mean you have to be a doormat. In fact you have the freedom to respond just about anyway, but karma is still active. Nonetheless whatever karmically happens you can always start again to make good karma.

    The karma is not fixed that is why it is called emptiness. Everyone has a different spin on what a karmic result is because we are all different.
  • edited December 2010
    Dear Love and Peace, At risk of opening a previous debate that I have read on this site ,I will pass on the name of a person I met by chance in the fall of 1972.
    My base understanding of existance was rapidly broadened during this chance encounter. I now have over the years read all his books and have most of his recorded sessions.
    A couple of his basic messages were "religious partisanship is not intellectually respectable" meaning claiming to be of this religion or that religion created seperation
    as soon as the declaration is made. Most religious scholars agree that no thing is seperate and all is one but by declaring yourself of one religion intellecually you are in already appearing to be in conflict. One needs to be very carefull when treading in this area.

    The other message that was clear was "once you have understood the message hang up the phone and get on with your life". Be wary of anyone who tells you "you must join us, or you must follow me, you must cling to this belief".

    These are just a couple of examples of his many thoughts that caught my attention.

    Some may debate his life, I can only tell you that he impacted me profoundly and I
    spent 4 days with him in what turned out to be the last year of his life.

    His name is Alan Watts. He wrote many books and there are many recorded sessions
    of his lectures and musings. They vary widely in subject matter and entertainment value, Watts discribed himself as a philosophical entertainer.

    Perhaps his words will work for you, have a look if you like.

    I also find Eckhart Tolle interesting, but my kids tell me he is too boring, but again each to their own.

    Radna
  • ManiMani Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Love&Peace wrote: »
    Can anyone please explain emptiness to me and the concept that we don't really exist. Am struggling with this. Can someone suggest a good book which explains it well. I have read Transform Your Life by Gesha Kelsang Gyatso and am still confused!!! Thanks, Wendy

    Oh yeah, You were asking for book suggestions, not just explanations. Well, one I could suggest is "How To See Yourself As You Really Are" by HH Dalai Lama, and another useful one might be "Introduction To Emptiness" by Guy Newland. These two try to "un-complicate" the subject as much as possible, however as you may find this is not such an easy task. I think it is good to gain an "introductory understanding" before looking at more difficult texts with more difficult concepts and language.

    M
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Openness, Clarity, and Sensitivity by Rigdzin Shikpo
  • edited December 2010
    Love&Peace wrote: »
    Can anyone please explain emptiness to me and the concept that we don't really exist. Am struggling with this. Can someone suggest a good book which explains it well. I have read Transform Your Life by Gesha Kelsang Gyatso and am still confused!!! Thanks, Wendy

    One that I liked is "Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree, the Buddha's teaching on voidness," by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. I got the book from Wisdom Publications or Amazon, I don't remember. You might want to google for a free edition on line.

    Worldling
  • edited December 2010
    worldling wrote: »
    One that I liked is "Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree, the Buddha's teaching on voidness," by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. I got the book from Wisdom Publications or Amazon, I don't remember. You might want to google for a free edition on line.

    Worldling

    Here it is:

    http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/BhikkhuBuddhadasa_Heart_Wood_from_the_Bo_Tree


    _/\_
  • edited December 2010
    Thank you all so much for your comments and suggestions, this really helps to understand the philosophy behind emptiness/nothingness. Wendy
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Calling it nothingness doesn't help, Wendy. That makes it sound like exactly what it's not. :)
  • Oh dear! Thanks Cloud. I am going on a retreat for New Year, its a Kadampa Centre and its where I bought Gesha's book too, so I will ask some questions and keep asking until I get it!!! Thanks for your help.
  • mmm retreat
    have fun! :)
  • From a standpoint that many Mahayana and Tibetan teachers use, one of the reasons that we have trouble understanding some of these things, even when studying for some time is that we have many obstacles and not enough merit. I've personally heard in teachings many times how important merit is when it comes to progressing and deepening ones understanding.

    When at a teaching on these topics it is also very common to begin each day by reciting the Heart Sutra. This can help to plant seeds as well.

    Enjoy the retreat!

    Mani

  • As far as books go: Thich Nhat Hanh's _Heart of the Buddha's Teaching_ has some good chapters on the topic
  • Thank you all for your comments. Its interesting what Mani says and I am a great believer in the notion that right now, we are exactly where we are supposed to be and that goes for my knowledge too. So it could well be that there are other elements of understanding and progress that I need to make before I fully grasp and understand the concept of 'emptiness'. Its a wonderful spiritual journey.....
  • Idam Sati Ayam Bhavati (when This exists That arises).

    Pretty much all there is to say.
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