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Newbie questions re: Lifestyle
Hello all,
I just joined this forum because a few days ago I moved in with an old friend who is now an ordained nun. It's a modern 2-BR condo, very sparsely & simply furnished, and is right above a meditation center where my friend is the resident teacher.
I moved here because my husband of 10 years told me 3 months ago that he wants to separate. We are now about to file for a divorce. It's been incredibly painful & I've been barely hanging on. My whole life turned upside down overnight, and I'm in the throes of intensely grieving many losses, including that of my love & best friend. It's been the hardest thing I've ever been through.
So i was/am looking forward to being in a spiritual environment & away from mass media & pop culture, which just depress me these days.
But while I feel immensely blessed & fortunate to have the opportunity to live here, it does present some new challenges. I'm a vivacious & humorous person & happen to love all kinds of things that life offers, including a good glass of wine, a nice juicy steak (!), beautiful things & in general, "the good life". Nothing in excess, and nothing frivolous. But being an artist & designer, aesthetics are *very* important to me, as are my 5 senses. I love film, music, beautiful clothing, good food & drink (when i have the appetite, which i lost after my husband left.) The home i left behind was not upscale or pricy, but it was beautifully furnished & decorated (mostly IKEA stuff, so nothing expensive), & had many comforts. It was a joy to be in each part of the house.
I'm fairly familiar with Buddhism from things I've read & heard over the years. I even stayed at a buddhist retreat once a few years ago, but not having any affiliation or connection, i left early (plus it was freezing!) It just felt too austere & foreign to me, and all the rituals were intimidating & not very comforting. I just didn't get it then.
But over the past few months, I've been listening to a lot of audiobooks & retreat lectures by Pema Chodron, Jack Kornfield, Reggie Ray, etc. and also practicing mindfulness in conjunction with therapy. I've begun to warm to Buddhism, and just trying to understand & benefit from the teachings without letting myself feel like i have to observe the rituals.
So my question has to do with the conflict I feel inside. I want to embrace buddhist teachings because i know how wise, true & valuable they are, but i also need/want to remain genuine & authentic. I'm not one for the austere life. It doesn't feed me or make me happy. I have many joys that are pure & good, and don't want to have to give them up in order to be spiritual. I'm in my 40's, so i know myself pretty well by now. I have tried things in the past, and if they did not allow for my authentic spirit to be fully active, i didn't stay with them. I know this can all be viewed as "attachment", but I want to be real...
I'd love to hear any insight that would help me reconcile these conflicts within myself.
With thanks,
Gracie
I just joined this forum because a few days ago I moved in with an old friend who is now an ordained nun. It's a modern 2-BR condo, very sparsely & simply furnished, and is right above a meditation center where my friend is the resident teacher.
I moved here because my husband of 10 years told me 3 months ago that he wants to separate. We are now about to file for a divorce. It's been incredibly painful & I've been barely hanging on. My whole life turned upside down overnight, and I'm in the throes of intensely grieving many losses, including that of my love & best friend. It's been the hardest thing I've ever been through.
So i was/am looking forward to being in a spiritual environment & away from mass media & pop culture, which just depress me these days.
But while I feel immensely blessed & fortunate to have the opportunity to live here, it does present some new challenges. I'm a vivacious & humorous person & happen to love all kinds of things that life offers, including a good glass of wine, a nice juicy steak (!), beautiful things & in general, "the good life". Nothing in excess, and nothing frivolous. But being an artist & designer, aesthetics are *very* important to me, as are my 5 senses. I love film, music, beautiful clothing, good food & drink (when i have the appetite, which i lost after my husband left.) The home i left behind was not upscale or pricy, but it was beautifully furnished & decorated (mostly IKEA stuff, so nothing expensive), & had many comforts. It was a joy to be in each part of the house.
I'm fairly familiar with Buddhism from things I've read & heard over the years. I even stayed at a buddhist retreat once a few years ago, but not having any affiliation or connection, i left early (plus it was freezing!) It just felt too austere & foreign to me, and all the rituals were intimidating & not very comforting. I just didn't get it then.
But over the past few months, I've been listening to a lot of audiobooks & retreat lectures by Pema Chodron, Jack Kornfield, Reggie Ray, etc. and also practicing mindfulness in conjunction with therapy. I've begun to warm to Buddhism, and just trying to understand & benefit from the teachings without letting myself feel like i have to observe the rituals.
So my question has to do with the conflict I feel inside. I want to embrace buddhist teachings because i know how wise, true & valuable they are, but i also need/want to remain genuine & authentic. I'm not one for the austere life. It doesn't feed me or make me happy. I have many joys that are pure & good, and don't want to have to give them up in order to be spiritual. I'm in my 40's, so i know myself pretty well by now. I have tried things in the past, and if they did not allow for my authentic spirit to be fully active, i didn't stay with them. I know this can all be viewed as "attachment", but I want to be real...
I'd love to hear any insight that would help me reconcile these conflicts within myself.
With thanks,
Gracie
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Comments
Could it be that easy?
You've become accustomed to a certain way of life over the years... All of us do. To change the way of life (especially as un-prepared and suddenly as yours has) can be a long long process. I personally can't really give a whole lot of advice to you...
But, perhaps a shift of perception would be good? It's really not necessary to dwell on your attachments. When you're ready, you'll stop being so attached. But don't feel bad about yourself for having these attachments. I don't think it would at all be productive at this time in your life for that...
As far as your present living situation is concerned... Perhaps you should look at some minimalist art? Maybe read a little into feng-shui? Do what is needed for you to ease your mind's suffering through this ordeal... It really is okay... Buddhism isn't a cure all like taking a pill... It requires a lot of effort to come to the realizations that lead one to a peaceful existence.
I think you should abide to your past propensities for now... Don't worry about "adopting" a Buddhist way of life yet... You need to get back on your own feet first before you can start walking in a new direction.
But, it's a good situation that you're in now for studying Buddhism. I'm sure your friend will be of great benefit to you in helping you find yourself again... Rediscover who you are when not the "wife" of (husband). One of the main principles in Buddhism is developing patience...
I'm not being judgemental, just honest with my opinion, which is exactly what you need to be with yourself if you want to be genuine and authentic, as you put it.
What you need to ask yourself, and really think about it rather than falling back on old conclusions, is do you really need that glass of wine, juicy steak, new dress, interior decoration to be you. Is it really those things that define who you are?
Think back on all the clothes you don't wear any more, all the decor that went out of fashion, all the steaks you've had that were chewy or tasteless, all the wine that was corked or undrinkable. If you're honest with yourself, do you really believe that genuine and authentic happiness lies in such ephemeral and variable pleasures?
You may not feel that you're being judgmental, but you are. This is exactly the kind of inflexible & condescending attitude that turns me off to fanatics of all stripes and colors. I happen to have been born & raised in the middle-east, have been around people of all different religions, and know when someone is being truly spiritual & when they're being preachy & self-righteous. Thank goodness my friend was not this sanctimonious!
to SherabDorjie: Thank you... Yes, that's actually how this came up... I wanted to buy a bottle of Chardonnay to keep in the fridge for the occasional glass. She *very* gently & respectfully asked me not to, and explained the reasons why, which made sense to me. I was curious & asked more questions, and learned that if you've taken the vows, you no longer can drink. But buddhists who have not taken the vows still do.
She felt bad about putting limits on me, but i let her know that i TOTALLY respect that, it was NO big deal at all. And that i'm ok with it. Which i am.
My predicament has more to do with my own shakiness right now, having left my own garden of eden (beloved home, marriage, etc.) & sort of floating in space till i can once again create a new life for myself that is once again authentic & enjoyable. But yes, i think continued dialog about this and all things will be really good. And she's never preachy or sanctimonious, which helps a great deal, and for all the obvious reasons...
I think I'm trying to bite off more than I can chew and at a time when I'm still in deep mourning & have a lot of challenges ahead. Beating myself up about not being able to embrace all things buddhist is unrealistic & unproductive. And that's what i'm also hearing in the teachings of Pema Chodron. If fact, I think i'd still be resistant to Buddhism if it weren't for her teachings & her flexible outlook.
But i also want to talk to others about this. I'm sure my questions are not unique, and it helps to know how much room there is for individuality within the Buddhist framework, even if one is not attached to those preferences or individual expression.
I suggested this to a friend of mine when she went through a similar situation as yours, and she seemed to respond well to it.
Also, if you're interested in learning more about your friends' vows, I would suggest reading a little into the "Pratimoksha vows" Pratimoksha
I truly pray that you find the easiest and most beneficial path to overcome your ordeal.
I was being 'brutally' honest, not to make you feel bad about yourself, or because I think you're silly for liking steaks and wine, but because I didn't think skirting the issue would be of any benefit to you. In retrospect it came of as uncaring, which again I apologise for.
You're going through a life crisis right now. Beyond making the mistake of numbing yourself with chemicals, this is the worst time for you to be worrying about doing things that you enjoy.
Give yourself time. Doing stuff you enjoy gets your mind off the pain for a while. That's more important right now than worrying about being attached to the activities you like.
My Buddhist advice, given from many years of sitting on my butt contemplating the clear mind is: give yourself permission to enjoy life. Let your mind heal and regain some balance before you attempt anything more than a little meditation. Don't let anyone tell you what you should be thinking beyond this. Eventually, you'll know it's time to seek something deeper, if that's what you want.
In strict monastic/nun vows, there are things that cannot happen even in the residence. My suggestion would be to ask your friend what can and cannot happen in the residence. I don't imagine you're planning to have wild parties or anything like that, but (especially if you're paying her rent to have your own space) there should be some things that you can do within the confines of your space that are allowable. If you're staying there as a guest, however, then, well...
I know Wikipedia has a list of the bhikku/bhikkuni vows, which should give you some idea of what can and cannot happen in any part of the residential area, and some other information about what the characteristics of your friend's lifestyle are. One that occurs to me immediately is that strictly speaking, she is not allowed to touch money. You could perhaps be helpful to her by helping her with the shopping when members of her group are unable to- when it suddenly occurs to her that she needs a particular ingredient for a dish she may be cooking, and so forth.
I think knowing the particulars of the vows she has taken would allow you to help her a lot and to understand her new (to you) lifestyle better.
Not so much for teachings.. (though full of them) but as a story to help you regain your strength as a woman. I highly suggest this book to all women (and, for men as well).
Great idea about learning about the Pratimoksha vows. I will do that.
And *thank you* for your prayers...
Hi Gracie,
it sounds like you're a person who brings beauty wherever she goes. What a precious attribute that is! Please don't lose it, or feel that you must suppress it. Beauty transforms people in very positive ways. It can give a moment of peace and joy when no words can.
Perhaps living with your nun friend might restrict what you can do in your home; however there's no reason you can't bring beauty elsewhere. Maybe the temple you live above needs help with its shrine room or preparing for ceremonies or tending its garden. There might be volunteer opportunities to beautify a neighborhood, perhaps paint a mural. I'm sure the possibilities are endless!
I don't think Buddhism and artistic sensibility are at ends. Infact, in many ways Buddhist practice seeks artistry in every moment of our life, from the way we sip our tea to the way we comfort a distressed friend. Our response to the world is our medium.
I am paying rent, but I'd still want to respect her wishes & rules. There's nothing excessive or unfair about any of it at all. It' really just a question of being able to relax and let my hair down (unless i too shave it all!
She does have a great sense of humor, so she doesn't mind when i teasingly ask her occasional questions like, "So it's ok to blast my heavy metal, right...?!"
Firstly, I am so sorry to hear of your divorce. After ten years of being together, you need to take the time to properly grieve the loss of your relationship and figure out who you are again as a separate person. There is nothing wrong with your lifestyle. You just need to be respectful of the person you are living with. Taking ordination doesn't mean you stop desiring things so it is a question of kindness to your roommate. Nothing stops you from going out to a restaurant for a juicy steak and a bottle of wine. Also, while I don't know which buddhist order your roommate belongs to, there are very few sects that have vows to give up tasteful Scandinavian furniture.
I have been practicing seriously for more than 20 years and while I don't drink much, I certainly have a glass of wine with dinner. I have a big furnished house in the suburbs as do many of the other members of my sangha. Even my late guru was known to shop at IKEA and he was a monk! It has never been considered an obstacle to practice. Monastics of course have different rules to live by, so it sounds like you need to be a little moderate while you are sharing space with her.
I would strongly advise against making major lifestyle changes during this period. Be gentle with yourself. You have enough upheaval already. I would suggest to share your concerns with your ordained friend. She should be able to help you to come to an understanding of what will work for both of you. She no doubt understands much of what you are going through.
All the best as you sort this out!
Warm regards,
Karma Dorje
Yes, that's always been my gift in this life, and to not be able to enjoy & create beauty & the simple pleasures would be a great loss to me. I also am realizing I will need a place that allows pets as I also love the energy they bring. I left my cat in our marital home & miss him very much. I know I know: more attachments!
I think my main challenge is being what's known in our culture as a free spirit. I've never been able to become a true follower for very long. I tried it with a few different traditions, including Kriya yoga & the likes. I've come to realize that I need to keep my own spiritual life very simple in order to really delve into it & "live" it. Ironically, one of the things that appeals to me about Buddhism is the relative simplicity compared to some other traditions. I'm just not good with structured rituals & prayers, singing & reciting in other languages, etc. I mean, i can do them very well, but i don't connect with them deep down. I still have a challenge even with the most basic meditations... Certain secular music often reaches my heart & soul more. So I'm not sure i'd ever really make a very good buddhist. But i really do appreciate & enjoy some the teachings that I've heard, so right now I just want to learn as much as i can.
Being new to all this and going through a divorce, i constantly feel like I'm walking on eggshells. My self-esteem & confidence have hit the ground, and I just don't want to screw up, cross any boundaries, upset anyone, give up the few things in life that give me joy, and feel bad or wrong about myself more than I already have been...
This is all very fertile ground for growth... But like all growth, it's painful.
I actually envy those who can have the clarity & commitment to stay with one tradition & follow its tenets.
Having had an inter-faith background all my life which included 5+ different traditions can get confusing sometimes. The up side is being able to appreciate & enjoy the best of what each offers, but the down side is that i have not been able to pick any one tradition & stick with it. I like things about each & every one, and need to have the diversity to feel whole. When i have to choose one to the exclusion of the others, i feel like I'm suffocating. I know that may not make any sense.
PS: This part made me smile: "...there are very few sects that have vows to give up tasteful Scandinavian furniture."
At the risk of sounding judgmental as well, I think Chrysalid is making a good point here. You say that want to embrace Buddhist teachings because you know "how wise, true & valuable they are," but by your own admission, you're happiness lies in sensual pleasures.
Of course, being a lay-follower doesn't mean you have to live an austere life-style, but a key part the path is being able to discern "the arising and ending of these feelings, [and] the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings" (SN 36.6). It's something to think about at least.
Sensual happiness is dependent upon conditions; it's a type of happiness that's ultimately fleeting, unstable. True happiness, on the other hand, is a kind of happiness that's not dependent on conditions, and Buddhism is all about the pursuit of true happiness.
That's not to say that I don't still enjoy my fair share of sensual pleasures; but Buddhism isn't called a gradual path for nothing (MN 107). Some of us are just harder to train than others.
What I didn't say in my email is that I have been a practicing Hindu, Taoist and ceremonial magician for that same period. I understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately, many people can be fundamentalist about practicing multiple traditions.
What I have found important is to take each tradition on its own terms. When I am practicing Buddhism, I do so according to its own tradition. The same can be said of Shakta Tantra, Advaita Vedanta, Qabalah, etc. Keep each tradition compartmentalized and practice it as its adherents suggest. Insights will blend from one to the next, but picking and choosing parts you like from each will keep you from making traction with any one tradition.
Of course, you have to be realistic about how much time you have to spend on these things. I spend on average 5 or 6 hours a day on meditation, study and practice. I don't have time for any hobbies, nor do I miss them. If you have correspondingly less time to devote to study and practice, you may find you have to pick just those things you have time for and then find the right teacher.
Don't listen to the fundamentalists. They mean well, but in my own experience are not correct. There is good in all traditions.
But i think you missed the larger picture of my circumstances and situation. The others who wrote fully got my predicament & their insights were tremendously helpful.
I'm not sure how else to clarify the lack of black-and-white-ness of this, other than to say: "Please have some compassion". There's definitely a difference in your approach & that of Chrysalid's post that does not feel like or come across as very kind or compassionate, but rather more from a place of ego, or if not ego, then being more interested in challenging my thoughts from an academic place...
Perhaps reading what others wrote in reply to my post can help you see the difference, and what it would be like to write a reply that can actually help a person in crisis or conflict instead of making them feel worse.
PS: Just for the record, what i meant by the teachings being "wise & true", are the parts that have resonated with me so far. No more, no less. Abstaining from a glass of wine does not resonate with me now, and it never may. Nor does viewing my enjoyment of a cut of fillet Mignon as "escape". None of that translate to "my happiness lying solely in sensual pleasures." Clearly that's not true, or i would not bother with anything spiritual at all, let alone wanting to learn & understand things that don't feel comfortable to me. I had a choice of several places to move to while waiting for the divorce to get finalized, and I chose this place. That ought to tell you something.
What you wrote, your writing style, and the tone, all bring to mind the approach & language of both my fundamentalist Christian relatives and my fundamentalist Muslims relatives... Just saying.
If I lacked compassion, I wouldn't have responded at all knowing that you'd most likely take it the wrong way and accuse me of being some kind of heartless fundamentalist. It's not like I enjoy being accused of either; but I thought that maybe I could help by trying to point out something you keep glossing over, something that Chrysalid also noticed as well.
It's not just that sensual pleasures are fleeting, it's even more subtle than that—there's a whole level of psychology at work here that I think needs to be addressed in order for you to truly reconcile these conflicts.
As for the rest, I'm sorry that you're going through such a difficult time right now with your divorce and everything else that entails. I'm also sorry that you find my words less than helpful. I knew that might be the case and I said them anyway. Perhaps this was done out of ego as you suggest, but it was also done out of a desire to help, by sharing something with you that isn't necessarily pleasing to hear but that I think is important and worth saying.
And for what it's worth, I read some of the other replies, and I thought they did a good enough job saying what they did that there was little I could add besides this one thing. If you don't find it helpful, then just leave it aside. No need to attack my motives or writing style.
I'm not glossing over anything or I wouldn't have posted the question in the first place. I already get what you both are saying, or it would not have been an issue.
I'm really glad i decided to join this forum & post here. It's already helped me see is that there are definitely differences in people's practice & approach, and one is not necessarily better than the other. And i appreciate knowing that I can still learn & enjoy the teachings at my own pace & in my own way. And definitely learn enough to understand & respect my friend's path & lifestyle.
I have no attachment to calling myself a Buddhist; that's not a priority and may never be.
Karmadorje's sage & approach rings true for me & resonates with me a great deal and given my own background & life circumstances. I'm glad to know there is not just one way to practice. And for that I am very thankful...
After all, what attracted me most to buddhism were the teachings about compassion, gentleness, suffering, patience and kindness to oneself & others.
And I'm lucky enough to be living with someone who is beautifully grounded in all of that, without being harsh or preachy. I'm not sure i could take that for very long! But i also like asking others who walk the path about their own experiences, since not everyone is an ordained nun...
They're sutta references (MN stands for the Majjhima Nikaya or 'Middle-length Discourses'; SN stands for the Samyutta Nikaya or 'Connected Discourses'). Since this is a Buddhist discussion board, I often post references to suttas and Dhamma talks when I think they're relevant to what I'm saying, mostly as supplementals and so that people know where I'm getting my information from. The way I see it, if someone wants to learn about Buddhism, it doesn't hurt to start with the words of the Buddha.
At this juncture, I doubt I'll ever be much of a buddhist scholar. But I am open to reading "beginner" books that refer to the words of the Buddha & explain them in a way that i can relate to.
It's not unlike my inability to enjoy the Bible itself because of the language & the references I can't relate to (living in the modern world), yet I can really get into certain books & works in literature that reference parts of the Bible or Christianity in general.
Thank so much.
And thanks again to everyone for your insights & suggestions. Very helpful...
But, at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old fundamentalist again, there is more than one form of compassion in the world and within Buddhism - on the one hand is sympathy and empathy, on the other is trying to help people confront the sources of their unhappiness. Both are aimed at alleviating suffering, they just approach it from different directions. The second way is also the Second Noble Truth, recognising and confronting the origin of suffering. Something your nun friend will know a great deal more about than I do.
I realise that at the moment you see us as uncompassionate, and there isn't really anything I can say to convince you that we really are nice people and only have your best interests at heart. I hope that one day, after you've been on the forums a while and have delved a bit further into the teachings of Buddhism than you might want to right now, that maybe you'll re-read this thread and Jason and I won't seem so much like mean-spirited ogres.
Oh, and I haven't welcomed you to the forums yet, so welcome!
I can only suggest your focus on your therapy, focus on Buddhist teachings that support your therapy and not get overly caught up in Buddhism.
Follow your intuition, "remain genuine & authentic" and avoid idealising Buddhism, as though Buddhism is something you must embrace.
The life of austerity is for the few rather than for the many. The life of austerity is something only certain people are naturally drawn to. It is not something forced.
About long lasting relationships, the Buddha taught two people need to have mutual (the same) faith & goals, the same virtue (goodness), the same generosity & sacrifice and the same wisdom & understanding.
Try to see where mutual incompatibility existed in your former relationship rather than taking the separation too much to heart.
We can spend years believing we were not good enough, etc, where as the truth is we simply did not have the same goals & qualities as the other person and the other person did not have the same goals & qualities as us.
Try not to blame yourself or put yourself down.
If you wish to use Buddhism, focus on those areas of Buddhism that give advice about relationships. Then you can at least learn the Buddha's opinion about what aspects of your relationship were cordial; those aspects which lead to inevitable breakup and those qualities which may better prepare us for the future.
Best wishes
DD
Whilst I agree with most of what Chrysalis says here, I must add my two cents as well. My take on this attachment stuff is to try to remember that buddhism is concerned with the middle path. There is nothing in buddhism (AFAIK) that necessitates Asceticism or Austerity. In other words, you don't have to have an appartment full of nothing at all. You don't HAVE to give up booze and red meat completely. But it may be that you decide at some point, for yourself, that you would be better off without the booze. Once you come to that conclusion, that it is unskillful, you might find yourself wanting to give it up.
The other thing to stress is that it is ATTACHMENT to things, that CRAVING leads to suffering, to dukkha. It does sound a 'little' that you may be attached to stuff. You need to be careful there. But if you can enjoy life, and things, without a craven desire for them, I can't see the issue.
I may be out of line here, I'm new to buddhism myself. But that's my take on it. Another thing I love about buddhism is that it is flexible in many ways, and can fit many different lifestyles.
I am sorry to hear that you have been going thru a difficult time.
In my own expeareance it is perfectly ok to enter the Dharma teachings in a slow and measured way.
If you apply the teachings on being mindfull and basic meditation in a consistant day to day structured way, you will see, in only a few weeks a subtle shift in your prespective on the world This will allow your mind to be more at peace and the stress in life that we all feel will diminish.
Over time, as you are exposed to more of the teachings there are things in your life that might natueraly fall away. The mistake that I and from what others have told me somtimes make is to make too many changes too fast, as if the Teachings were some kind of race.
The key is not to force your mind to do something that it is not ready for, If you do that, you can become angry and frustrated with the Teachings and disengage from them completely.
This life is but a single frsme in a very long moive, there is no need to try and fast forward to the end,
All the Best
If you don't feel like doing that or can't - then don't. The trick is to not get entangled in the materials. Some think that enjoying a good meal is the same as suffering because the meal will disasspear (d'uh
Suffering comes when you miss the good food, when you feel bad about spending the money, when you think things should be different.
Cessation of suffering comes when you realize that you don't need anything but rice to live and are happy enough anyway.
Some think that Buddhism means to try to give up living and enjoying - quite the contrary is the case. Buddhism is about (among other things) enjoying what is.
Take a look at Hotei - he surely had a good meal or two, and he sure was happy and full of enjoyment!
"I don't know but I've been told:" :eek: mindfulness, positive thinking and good deeds are actions which Bill Gates and Bob the Janitor can form into habits which make them and the world better. If the difference in scale between Bill and Bob comes to somebody's mind, then that somebody is stuck on something that's blocking his/her view. No big deal. It's something to work on.
I agree that if not having a particular luxury causes you misery, then yes, this is attachment.
However, there's a much deeper aspect to the "beauty-good steak" issue. It's more about artful living then having this or that. With an artistic sensibility towards life, it doesn't matter whether you're preparing steak or rice. The same careful attention and appreciation is given in either case. It's about honoring the creative spirit, and dancing with what is. So, perhaps we're saying the same thing, only from slightly different perspectives.
BTW, the steak thing? Don't forget to say a little prayer to the animal. No big deal. I just do it.