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The realms

NirvanaNoobNirvanaNoob
edited November 2005 in Buddhism Basics
When buddha mentions the several realms of existence, what does he mean by the "god realm? I thought that he didnt beleive in that stuff.

Comments

  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2005
    NirvanaNoob wrote:
    When buddha mentions the several realms of existence, what does he mean by the "god realm? I thought that he didnt beleive in that stuff.

    The stuff about Supreme Being, the Buddha was sensible enough to leave to others and counted it among the unprofitable topics.

    It was, however, the commonly held belief, as it has been for most humans who ever lived, that there are 'realms' of existence other than the physical. We have tended to personify those 'realms' because that is what we understand.

    This is what I was told:
    The 'gods' of the Wheel of Rebirth have everything they could want. They live long, long lives of happiness and plenty. In the end, they too, of course, die, because they are part of the great dance of samsara. Because all their desires are satisfied, they cannot recognise the Four Noble Truths and, thus, never walk the Path of Liberation.

    My biggest problem in discussing the tens of thousands of gods that have been part of human storytelling since before memory is the anomalous idea of an interventionist Supreme Being. It clouds the possibility of states of being which are other than ours, of powers partially undersood and incompletely grasped.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Another way of understanding the six realms of existence is that they represent states of mind we all experience. For instance, the god realm is said to represent pride, the animal realm ignorance, the hell realm hatred, the hungry ghost realm greed, and the jealous god realm jealousy. Can you guess what the human realm represents?

    Palzang

    PS That doesn't necessarily mean that the six realms don't really exist. I don't know if they do or not, but of course we know that there is an animal realm and a human realm, so maybe they do.
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited November 2005
    My personal opinion is that they don't exist... 'Cause it's unfair for one good guy in this life, to be reborn in a higher realm where, well, he is oblivious to the Dharma... The karma he accumulated should not get him reborn in the gods' realm but instead in the human realm, leading a good life, yet still practising the Dharma.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2005
    NirvanaNoob,

    If you are interested, here is a link to some information about the celestial realms derived from the Pali Canon: Sagga (Heavenly Realm)

    :)

    Jason
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2005
    In the Christian scriptures, Jesus is reported to have said that the rich person finds it very hard (if not impossible) to enter the Basileia. I have heard lots of sermons and read lots of writing on this sutra but I never reallyt understood what it could mean until I began to reflect on the Realms.

    For a rich person, who has everything they desire, what incentive is there to walk the path of renunciation which all spiritual disciplines show us is needed for Awakening? This is also the lesson of the pampered childhood of Gautama. Until there is understanding of the Noble Truth of Suffering in our own lives, we have no goad to go for Refuge.

    This is the tragedy of the 'god realm', and of the contemporary worship of success and the false god named Marketplace.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited November 2005
    "And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Always wondered about that phrase.... here's a few different "à propos" on it....


    http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

    Thanks for bringing it up BF.... it's even more appropriate now.... ;)
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2005
    The main characteristic of the god realm is pride, so what that means is that the one reborn into the god realm is so taken with him/herself that there is no room left in the mind to practice Dharma. Also there is, as Simon says (Simon says, get it?! Ha ha) no incentive to do so either because there is no suffering, at least until their very, very long life comes to an end. Then the suffering becomes quite intense because they know the end is coming, and there ain't a dang thing they can do about it!

    But we can see god realm people in this life. Think of a big Hollywood star, for example, or a multimillionaire like Donald Trump. Isn't that sort of the life they lead? And we probably all have experienced such a state, if only briefly, when everything is really going great for us and the last thing on our mind is suffering or the cause of suffering or the end of suffering. We're too much taken with ourselves to think about such things.

    As for being fair, Ajani, well, I don't think the word "fair" really has much meaning here. Karma isn't something doled out by some big white grandfather type guy sitting in a chair up in heaven, you know. It's just simple cause and effect. So that's why the bodhisattva takes a vow to be born wherever and in whatever form is needed for the benefit of sentient beings.

    Palzang

    P.S. As for the biblical quote, did you know that the eye of the needle they were talking about referred to one of the gates in the wall of Jerusalem that was called the "needle"? So it wasn't impossible for a camel to enter the gate, just extremely difficult due to its small size and busy human traffic.

    "You have to know these things to be a king." King Arthur in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Gee, thanks a lot, Fed, for blowing that story out of the water!

    :sadc:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Yes, sorry 'bout that.... but life is just one big happy learning process, I guess!! :lol:
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Thanks for the link, Fede. I didn't want to get into a debate about the use of puns in the NT and how the translators miss them. There are lots in both parts of the Bible, the most interesting, to me, being the possible pun in the famous "I am who I am".

    However you translate it, the truth remains the same, as Palzang has said: pride and ease are poor companions on the road.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited November 2005
    I was taught, as a youth, that the statement regarding the "eye of the needle, the camel and a rich man entering the Kingdom of God" ...

    Dealt with what Palzang was saying.

    The Bible also had many other sayings about pride, haughtiness, money being the root of all evil. Having riches - whether it be fame, connections, money, power - tends to make a person feel that they have no need of a God. They are self-sufficient on their own - which is not something a Christian God cottons to. So, while you carry these attributes - you're not going to be humble enough to submit yourself to a God so that you can enter the kingdom of Heaven.

    Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth.

    For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world

    The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

    God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

    But, that doesn't meant that it cannot happen. King David had many riches and HUGE failures in his life - but the Bible teaches that "David was a man after God's own heart."

    So - I think this is metaphorical - in defining how riches, pride, not being humble can keep one from the Kingdom of Heaven - if you believe in that sort of thing.

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Simonthepilgrim wrote:
    There are lots in both parts of the Bible, the most interesting, to me, being the possible pun in the famous "I am who I am".


    Silly boy... That wasn't the Bible - that was Popeye.....!!:grin:
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Ha! Got you this time, Fed! Popeye said "I ams what I ams, and that's all that I ams!"

    Turnabout is fair play, ehnit?

    Palzang
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    ....Providing we all go away with something, it has not all been in vain, Pal....!! ;)
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Or just go away...

    :tongue2:
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2005
    You speak, I trow, of the "Big Fruit Song": "I yam what I yam" from La Cage aux FollesI.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    ....."I am my own special crea-shann.....!"


    ....Or maybe I'm thinking of Jimmy Durante.....:crazy: :grin:
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