17th Karmapa : who is the real one???

namahbuddha

Hello here I am again with a question that really has been disturbing my peace for a while.
I have absolutely read everything on the internet and on the books available about the subject and what I just could see was lots and lots of opinions, lots of blind-faith traps, gossip, wrong speech etc etc etc

What if a individual has a choice between two groups to follow and one of them the head is the karmapa appointed by HH Dalai lama and the other by the Karmapa appointed by HH the Shamar Rinpoche:

a) Go for HH Dalai Lama's one,HH is Chenrezig and there is no way he could be wrong and by the way he is the spiritual leader of Tibet, and dispite all the accusations of blind faith and letter forgery be content and reassured that your choice represent the majority of the kagyu and the support of the other schools;

b) Go for Shamar Rinpoche's one, it has always been Shamarpas who appointed Karmapas before, since before the 1st Dalai lam and face the misery of being told that your leader is a fake and have 75% of the vajrayana world treating your teachers and lineage as a joke;

c) Run Away from the Kagyu tradition and save yourself this excruciating decision, there are other schools with an unanimous accepted leader;

d) Look for a theravadan centre and forget tulkus etc etc because these issues can take you far away from the path to lasting happiness;

e) buy a bible and convert yourself the Jesus Christ.

Exaggerations and humour apart, what do you, folks, have to say about this issue?
Thuje Che

caz

The Dalai lama should not have created this mess in the first place and instead let the Kagyus choose their own as they always have rather then forcing political weight behind his own candidate of choice , This is very wrong it undermimes the Independence and uniqueness of the Kagyu school and has created needless factionalism.

Mountains

What's done is done. It will all work itself out, and the sun will still rise and set for another few billion years...

SherabDorje

Caz- according to Wikipedia, HHDL was asked to decide the issue. Granted he was asked by senior lamas who had already thought they knew, but perhaps he didn't really "create this mess in the first place" or "force his political weight behind his own candidate of choice". I would like to see information from a neutral source that that is in fact what HHDL did.

It also says in the same Wikipedia article that there may in fact be two emanations of the Karmapa this time around, that that is possible.

I myself have no particular stake in this either way, as long as it does not obstruct Dharma teachings. I think history will tell which, if either, is the correct Karmapa.

Partial quote from Wikipedia:

"Of the two 17th Karmapas, Ogyen Trinley Dorje has been recognized by Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. In July 1992, both asked the Office of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala to confirm their recognition. The 14th Dalai Lama confirmed the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmapa_Controversy

namahbuddha

I really sympathise with the idea of two emanations as SherabDorje said i would feel like dying having to choose between one of them... it is like in the film little buddha where there is three emanations of the rinpoche and one of them is even a girl.

caz

Caz- according to Wikipedia, HHDL was asked to decide the issue. Granted he was asked by senior lamas who had already thought they knew, but perhaps he didn't really "create this mess in the first place" or "force his political weight behind his own candidate of choice". I would like to see information from a neutral source that that is in fact what HHDL did.

It also says in the same Wikipedia article that there may in fact be two emanations of the Karmapa this time around, that that is possible.

I myself have no particular stake in this either way, as long as it does not obstruct Dharma teachings. I think history will tell which, if either, is the correct Karmapa.

Partial quote from Wikipedia:

"Of the two 17th Karmapas, Ogyen Trinley Dorje has been recognized by Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. In July 1992, both asked the Office of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala to confirm their recognition. The 14th Dalai Lama confirmed the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmapa_Controversy

Dear Sherab His holiness should know better then to get involved in factional affairs it is not good for anyone, Due to his great reputation and fame being the political and apparent spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism when ever he makes a choice between two candidates people will certainly take that as an indication of the otherside being wrong and defying the wishes of His holiness, Therefore It was suggested that the Kagyu school should have decided amongst their selves rather then having an outside force create such a division amongst their following, It sets a bad precedent and creates a lot of difficulty when for example those whom recognise the other candiate are now viewed as wrong and going against the wishes of His holiness this would not have happened if this dispute had been left alone or without oneside or the other looking for a leg up recognition by going to His holiness to decide.

People have suggested that the karmapas may actually be both the same as the previous one so if people hold this view no matter whom they receive teachings from they are definatly receiving teachings from a Buddha.

namahbuddha

this was just what would be ideal and perfect caz namyaw, nevertheless the reality is not this romantic. I just wonder if the rumours that HH will retire and put his choice of Karmapa as his successor and the other as head of Kagyu is true. I just think that they don't have idea how people in the base of the pyramid would love to know where things stand at the moment why they don't meet the two sides and just make peace and everybody is happy? Are they followers of the same dharmma or I missed the class? they've met somehow:

[link]http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews[pointer]=5&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=11&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=490e99528b[/link]

but nobody knows since 2007 what was discussed. for nobody I mean us because of course they know what they've discussed. If someone has some light on the subject would be great.

Mani

Do you practice in the Kagyu tradition? How do you know that you even have a Dharmic connection to Karmapa or the lineage?

If the answer of the first question is no, then why even bother with the whole issue?

Examine the teachings that they give, and I would have to say that if you ever get the chance to be in the presence of Karmapa, then it may be easier to make up your own mind about these things through the experience. When you are around a highly realized teacher, "you just know." No other way to explain it.

namahbuddha

thank you Mani.

I am not the type of person who would enter in a house where there is smoking going off the windows, although I feel like I am in the street looking to this house and thinking "what a beautiful house" but then in case I enter this house I just don't know if I go to the side of the house where the fireman are parked or to the other side where the fireman said it is dangerous to be. the intention is just not create one more web speculation about this issue.

Dakini

I read that it's been customary for Dalai Lamas to approve the choice for Karmapa, after the Kagyus had selected (or found) the candidate.

I wish there were more info available on Shamar's candidate; I haven't been able to find anything.

Here's what I think may have been the reasoning behind the scenes;
Tai Situ found a gifted child in China. Somehow he and those surrounding the child managed to maneuver in such a way as to get the Chinese to approve the choice. Eventually this candidate escaped to India. Bear in mind that the Panchen Lama has been kidnapped and held hostage by the Chinese, so he's not available to approve the next candidate for Dalai Lama (if there will be one). So they need the Karmapa to be available to make that decision. So they managed to get a Karmapa who has been approved by the Chinese, meaning that if/when the karmapa approves the next Dalai Lama incarnation, theoretically, the Chinese can't complain, because it'll be THEIR GUY who makes the approval! Astute move. That's how I see it. But according to reports, Tai Situ forged the document indicating the next Karmapa reincarnation. Too bad the 16th didn't leave a letter, or at least, not where it could be found. Strange. I'm not taking sides in this, I'm just saying that there are probably political reasons for the choice that was made.

SherabDorje

Look up "Karmapa controversy" in Wikipedia. It's all there, including biographical information about Shamar Rinpoche's choice.

Jeffrey

Whoever in your lineage in Karmapa is guru Rinpoche.

SherabDorje

Whoever in your lineage in Karmapa is guru Rinpoche.

Guru Rinpoche is a historical figure that did not reincarnate, so he would be the same for all lineages (in terms of historical fact, at least).

Jeffrey

SherDorje I meant an embodiment not reincarnate. Wisdom passed down the line. Anyway thats how my teacher says it to her students. Veneration and inspiration from guru Rinpoche is important to many.

Basicly I am saying that they are both good karmapas. Well maybe both are bad and that would be unfortunate. But they have had every opportunity to learn the dharma from a young age.