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reincarnation and energy transfer
zombiegirl
beating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wasteland Veteran
hello all! been a quick minute, but i'm still alive, and doing quite well, i might add. i hope the same for the forum 
so let me jump into it, i suppose what i'm wondering is what everyone thinks of when they think of rebirth. if you had to describe the process, what would you say? i am well aware that it doesn't really matter (and yes yes, perhaps i am asking the details of my assailant instead of finding the cure to my poison, lol) and i by no means obsess over it, but you know what? my mind wanders and sometimes i wonder anyways, so let's get on with it.
for a long time i supported the idea of reincarnation because "energy is neither created nor destroyed." but i suppose, in my head, i thought of it as if when we died, this soul (in the form of energy) left and went somewhere to this place where other souls collected until some future time where i was recycled and came back.
but when i began to accept the idea of "rebirth" over "reincarnation", i began to think of it as a complete combination of all souls melding together with no discernible beginning or end. almost as if there was a huge massive energy ball out there somewhere that spawned all of creation.
then, finally, i had the thought that there is no massive "soul" (or energy) community hall. the energy of my body is dispersed through the body's decomposition and provides energy through food for worms (or scavengers) who create nutrition for plant life. other forms of life feed on the plants (and further still, other forms of life eat those herbivores, possibly even us humans) and in that way, all energy is recycled and everything is connected. but this theory provides no account of consciousness. to accept this theory, you have to believe that there is no soul and "consciousness" is simply a construct of the complex firing nerve impulses in our brain.
and then at this point, i wonder to myself, is this even rebirth anymore? have i passed the concept of rebirth and went straight to no belief system at all other than science? and is that a bad thing? haha
just curious about everyone's thoughts. does anyone else think of rebirth in this manner?
it's kind of, "it is what it is." but if it is any consolation, it does make me ponder the vast and awesome amount of beings before me that were combined to give rise to my mother and my father and ultimately, me.
so let me jump into it, i suppose what i'm wondering is what everyone thinks of when they think of rebirth. if you had to describe the process, what would you say? i am well aware that it doesn't really matter (and yes yes, perhaps i am asking the details of my assailant instead of finding the cure to my poison, lol) and i by no means obsess over it, but you know what? my mind wanders and sometimes i wonder anyways, so let's get on with it.
for a long time i supported the idea of reincarnation because "energy is neither created nor destroyed." but i suppose, in my head, i thought of it as if when we died, this soul (in the form of energy) left and went somewhere to this place where other souls collected until some future time where i was recycled and came back.
but when i began to accept the idea of "rebirth" over "reincarnation", i began to think of it as a complete combination of all souls melding together with no discernible beginning or end. almost as if there was a huge massive energy ball out there somewhere that spawned all of creation.
then, finally, i had the thought that there is no massive "soul" (or energy) community hall. the energy of my body is dispersed through the body's decomposition and provides energy through food for worms (or scavengers) who create nutrition for plant life. other forms of life feed on the plants (and further still, other forms of life eat those herbivores, possibly even us humans) and in that way, all energy is recycled and everything is connected. but this theory provides no account of consciousness. to accept this theory, you have to believe that there is no soul and "consciousness" is simply a construct of the complex firing nerve impulses in our brain.
and then at this point, i wonder to myself, is this even rebirth anymore? have i passed the concept of rebirth and went straight to no belief system at all other than science? and is that a bad thing? haha
just curious about everyone's thoughts.
does anyone else think of rebirth in this manner? it's kind of, "it is what it is." but if it is any consolation, it does make me ponder the vast and awesome amount of beings before me that were combined to give rise to my mother and my father and ultimately, me.
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Comments
Birth and death are not beginnings and endings; they are transformations. The mind that has realized this (Nirvana) knows this "unborn" and "deathless" reality. This is the same reality that all of us share; we just haven't seen it for ourselves. That is the goal of this path.
IMHO you've come to a healthier understanding than one based on self-preservation. Buddhism isn't supposed to be a belief system, so you've moved to an understanding that is mostly based on direct experience; this is what the Buddha taught. The entire post-mortem rebirth/reincarnation debate only goes on while we're still caught in delusion of self.
The kind of rebirth in the here-and-now that can break us free of this cycle is the rebirth (re-arising) of unwholesome mental states based on what we've done in the past (our karma). Our present karma can work toward the creation of wholesome states that will lead to our liberation.
and yes, when i first started to consider "rebirth" vs. "reincarnation" i had this whole knee jerk reaction like, "i'm not going to be me anymore? no way!" but eventually, i was forced to consider WHY i felt that way and what proof i had to support my current belief system. when i came up empty, i had to acknowledge that it was my own self-clinging that was holding me back. why was it so scary to think that "I" wouldn't exist anymore? but the funniest part of all is that once i let go of this concept that "I" would continue on, i didn't feel scared and depressed, just... liberated.
i particularly like what you said at the end here about the proper application of the concept of rebirth to our mental states. thank you, again
When we see that "I" is just a construct, we know "Buddhist" is the same. People are afraid, because they don't believe that facing reality is liberating (they think it is annihilation); you're fortunate enough to know better!
Namaste
This thread relates to something I have been mildly contemplating for a short while. I can only add my opinions and I believe in rebirth, some buddhists here do not and that is fine but I personally do.
I heard a monk talk about how everything is transient, how can energy be fabricated? It cannot from a scientific objective, so it must be a continuous change, an entity always in transience such as everything else in this world. You are not the same person you were one second ago, you have changed in many many ways.
I believe that the kamma you create in your life/lives gets carried on through to your next life, it sort of dictates what circumstance you happen to travel into via a stream of consciousness. Of course, kamma is not a god or an all knowing punishing and rewarding being, most of us know this
But I also think this, the universe is all one. If there exists no consciousness, there exists nothing what so ever. negative kamma and positive kamma are constantly balancing each other out minute by minute like a law of physics.
Anyway there is my rant that maybe related very little to what you posted lol, but hello again good to see you again, hope you are well Tom
I never speculate about past or future lives because its irrelevant to the importance of my practice here and now.
Kind wishes to you
Dazzle
In one sense I am typing and wishing hoping to participate and learn something. I feel limited. It really seemed like a paradox and interesting but when I see the paradox and dwell on feeling I am bound it is so confusing a lot of things at once.
perfection is one step at a time I agree with dazzle, but some of those steps are standing still looking up at the staircase and gasping. If we can't deal with that then what is practice but polishing tiles. Wheres the indignant emoticons? I want my emoticons back .
but anyways, you reminded me of something... when i was very young, i once had this thought that scared the crap out of me. i thought, what if everyone in the entire world died and there are no such thing as aliens and consciousness as we know it ceased to exist. what blew my mind completely was... not only would there be no one around, there would be no one around to even KNOW there were no one around! i had this dread of this idea of impending emptiness lol.
consciousness(and the self) is a very tricky and interesting subject to me. sometimes i lean toward thinking that it is merely a fabrication of our brains in a very physical sense (think terry schiavo). i would like to think there is more to it, but as i have no proof, i have to consider that this is probably just ego-clinging again. it makes you feel much more small and insignificant when you consider the possibility that you are just a mass of brain functions. but then again, maybe i am. if i took a direct hit to the temporal lobe now, i might develop violent tendencies and become a serial killer. personality is definitely in flux, hm?
Where do you think "Creation" is?
It's in your head, isn't it? :rolleyes: