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Non Physical Abuse and Violence
After reading most of the discussion, "Skillful Blame", I wanted to explore some similar questions that I've had for years on this subject. I thought that it would be better to start a new thread rather than possibly derail the OP's post.
I've heard people express both sides of the same coin on the topic of cause and effect and karma. Some say that every outcome is the result of skillful or unskillful thought, speech, and actions. Others say that all experiences are the result of past karma. I accept that both of these factors affect our lives but I'm not sure how much other people's thought, words and actions affect us and to what degree. I have a hard time understanding where our own factors leave off and other factors outside of ourselves take over.
People have the option to elevate themselves and those around them or to cause harm. It seems that the desire to cause harm is growing stronger and becoming part of our culture. We see it in the news- bullying, workplace "mobbing", abuse of the internet to "out" or humiliate people. With all the knowledge readily available to us, in the developed world, why the increase in cruelty and abuse?
To me, there is no difference between physical, emotional, psychological, or mental abuse. Each cause harm, inflict injury, and can severely alter the victim's life. People seem to give a pass to non physical abuse. If the victim is overwhelmed by the abuse, they are labeled weak and thought to lack good character. Often, the abusers are lionized as strong, smart, winners.
In my eyes, people ganging up on someone by spreading rumors, humiliation, and verbal abuse are just as bad as thugs who physically beat someone to cause injury or death. I think that people are comfortable using non physical violence because their actions cannot be measured like physical injuries. For example, if you saw a group of people attack a lame person, stomping on the person's bad leg to cause loss of limb or life- you would think that they were monsters. Verbal assault of people is considered, by many, to be fair game and/or entertaining. I've heard people often respond, "what goes around, comes around" and are gleeful about another person's humiliation. I understand that ignorance is the reason why many people react this way. On the other hand, many people are very aware of how much damage they can do.
I understand that we are responsible for our own growth and development. I think that we also have a responsibility to elevate the group consciousness, as well. Knowledge can help awaken others.
How much of this activity prevents a targeted person from fulfilling a needed goal or developing a talent? Also, what about the observers of the verbal abuse? They are also affected by the abuse. They can be demoralized by witnessing it and being powerless to stop it. Others are influenced to take part, so that they can join the group, curry favor with the perpetrator, or out of relief that they are not the target.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this subject and how you cope with these negative actions. Sorry for the length of this post- I was hoping to be clear on the subject and not have it come off as a rant. If you've read up to this point- Thank You! and I wish everyone a peaceful, joyous holiday. Namaste.
I've heard people express both sides of the same coin on the topic of cause and effect and karma. Some say that every outcome is the result of skillful or unskillful thought, speech, and actions. Others say that all experiences are the result of past karma. I accept that both of these factors affect our lives but I'm not sure how much other people's thought, words and actions affect us and to what degree. I have a hard time understanding where our own factors leave off and other factors outside of ourselves take over.
People have the option to elevate themselves and those around them or to cause harm. It seems that the desire to cause harm is growing stronger and becoming part of our culture. We see it in the news- bullying, workplace "mobbing", abuse of the internet to "out" or humiliate people. With all the knowledge readily available to us, in the developed world, why the increase in cruelty and abuse?
To me, there is no difference between physical, emotional, psychological, or mental abuse. Each cause harm, inflict injury, and can severely alter the victim's life. People seem to give a pass to non physical abuse. If the victim is overwhelmed by the abuse, they are labeled weak and thought to lack good character. Often, the abusers are lionized as strong, smart, winners.
In my eyes, people ganging up on someone by spreading rumors, humiliation, and verbal abuse are just as bad as thugs who physically beat someone to cause injury or death. I think that people are comfortable using non physical violence because their actions cannot be measured like physical injuries. For example, if you saw a group of people attack a lame person, stomping on the person's bad leg to cause loss of limb or life- you would think that they were monsters. Verbal assault of people is considered, by many, to be fair game and/or entertaining. I've heard people often respond, "what goes around, comes around" and are gleeful about another person's humiliation. I understand that ignorance is the reason why many people react this way. On the other hand, many people are very aware of how much damage they can do.
I understand that we are responsible for our own growth and development. I think that we also have a responsibility to elevate the group consciousness, as well. Knowledge can help awaken others.
How much of this activity prevents a targeted person from fulfilling a needed goal or developing a talent? Also, what about the observers of the verbal abuse? They are also affected by the abuse. They can be demoralized by witnessing it and being powerless to stop it. Others are influenced to take part, so that they can join the group, curry favor with the perpetrator, or out of relief that they are not the target.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this subject and how you cope with these negative actions. Sorry for the length of this post- I was hoping to be clear on the subject and not have it come off as a rant. If you've read up to this point- Thank You! and I wish everyone a peaceful, joyous holiday. Namaste.
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Comments
What comes our way from the world (sights, sounds, tastes, touches, smells) can greatly affect our lives, but our own karma is the thing that will change our minds for the better or worse; it is our own karma that can lead to more suffering or less.
If we do not suffer in mind, we do not suffer; it won't matter what the world throws at us.
Namaste
"Besides the two varieties of karma, wholesome and unwholesome karma, we should mention neutral or ineffective karma. Neutral karma is karma that has no moral consequence either because the very nature of the action is such as to have no moral consequence or because it is done involuntarily and unintentionally. For example, sleeping, walking, breathing, eating, handicraft and so forth in themselves have no moral consequence. Similarly, unintentional action is ineffective karma. In other words, if one accidentally steps on an insect, being unconscious of its existence, this also constitutes neutral karma because there is no intention - the intentional element is not there."
I would call this neutral when applied to one on the path to awakening; ineffective when applied to one who has awakened. It is akin to saying no karma generation; there is no mental volition, and mental volition is why karma is important and how we use it to awaken. Other meanings aren't useful to us; this isn't just scientific cause and effect, but more the kind of cause and effect that deals with how the mind changes.
Namaste
Say that you had to take a very expensive class and needed to pass it to move on with your career. You have very little knowledge to get through the class, confusing and conflicting text books, and a teacher who offers little to no correction. Plus you have fellow students who confuse things even more or will sabotage the other students. Chances are that you will do poorly and have to repeat the class many times. This would become a costly and bogged down process. Students would come to the wrong conclusions, fail to learn the lessons, give up and become discouraged, etc.
So each year the student takes this class, their past mistakes are a factor in their grade but they don't know where they made the mistake or what they're learning this year.
I understand that enlightenment is not easy to obtain. I understand that we have to shed our negative behavior and delusions. The negative factors are dominate in our world because they are seen, by the masses, as the way to get what they need or want. People will use negative behavior for may reasons. So, if we suffer or are harmed by their behavior- we just had it coming anyway? There is no need to hold the negative person responsible?
I think we have to be careful not to use the principle of karma to blame the victim. Bullies tend to choose vulnerable-looking or shy, reticent people to pick on. Often it's the more sensitive and quietly thoughtful, compassionate children who get picked on. Would you say it is those innocent individuals' past karma that attracted the bullying? Or in the case of a workplace where a kind, generous person might be surrounded by desperate, grasping egos? I don't think it's so simple as saying someone must have built up a load of bad karma from past lives, or the current life. Stuff happens to good people; I don't think there's anything karmic about it, except the negative karma the bullies earn themselves.
Possibly all the new forms of bullying are due in part to stress? Like road rage.
Happy kids don't bully. Maybe there's something in the culture, or perhaps bullying is due to parents in a dysfunctional marriage, or who are emotionally abusive or distant towards their kids?
http://www.overcomebullying.org/mobbing.html
Thanks for your reply, compassionate_warrior. I first learned about eastern studies through the new age movement and they did seem to use karmic principle to blame the victim. I always questioned them by asking, "How can you tell if it's your karma or if it's negative action on the part of another individual?" They always brushed it off.
It just seems to me that society gives bullies a pass and grants them more power. It's probably not in keeping with Buddhist beliefs, but I think that we all have a responsibility for the group consciousness. I believe that things are as bad as they are around the world, because the majority do not stand up to the "bad guys". This, in turn, just generates more negativity.
I get frustrated when people try to brush it off as "just karma". If that's the main force behind everything that happens, then don't we all incur more karma by supporting the bad guys?
I also agree that bullies have deep seeded behavior problems. Not all abused people lash out and harm others. Many abused people feel great empathy for others because they understand that kind of pain. Bullies are often narcissistic. Some truly lack empathy and are sociopaths.
I believe that bullying has been championed in our society for a long time. Just look at some of the "reality shows" on TV. They often pit people against one another and the most ruthless person "wins". Some shows humiliate people, and others make competition the ultimate goal. I believe that many people are taking cues from scripted TV shows into society and the results are harmful. People are becoming desensitized to other people's pain.
So, to those who like to cite karma as the driving force for all experiences- I have to disagree. Karma can be used as an excuse, and as a way to manipulate people. IE: Oh well, the reason that investor was able to steal all of your money was due to the fact that you have bad karma from being a thief hundreds of years ago. Sorry, I'm not convinced.
Namate
I've begun to suspect, as you say, that karma could be used/has been used to manipulate people. In fact, I've seen on this site how accusations of "wrong speech" have been used to silence anyone speaking out about "bad guys" that no one wanted to believe were "bad guys". The teachings can be used to enlighten, or they can be used to silence and disempower. That's the conclusion I've come to recently.
There's a great Einstein quote, about how the world has become a very dangerous place, not because of the evil some people do, but because of what people don't do in response to evil. Is Dharma passivity, or is it activism? (Maybe I'll start a thread on that.
Carry on, kayte!
Skillful thoughts, speech and actions are those that are not founded in greed, hate/aversion and delusion. They are in line with the precepts (the five precepts at least) and the Noble Eightfold Path. As Federica said in another thread, study the Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts and you should be okay; you have to combine those with a meditation technique (for "Right Concentration" factor of the Noble Eightfold Path), and I'd personally recommend Samatha-Vipassana.
Namaste
I am grateful for the Buddhist teachings but I don't have an attachment to them. I am grateful to Siddhārtha Gautama for opening the door to a higher consciousness for all willing to listen.
I do firmly believe that we, as a collective, can alter our state of being in this world. This world is dominated by deception- in all aspects. There were periods in history where truth was the stronger factor that led to great discoveries and helped free society of destructive practices. Look at history.
I'm looking forward to your thread on Dharma! Please do, I think it will be a lively discussion. :clap: Namaste
You can think, speak, and act as skillfully as you like, but if someone is out to harm you, they will use it against you.
I do place great value on the Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts but we do live in a deceptive world. These practices will guide you but not protect you like a magic talisman.
We can't close our eyes, and cover our ears, to make the bad stuff to go away.
I mean no disrespect.
Namaste
I agree, BTW, that compassion requires that we act on behalf of others, not go around with our heads buried in a little cloud of 4 Noble Truths and the 8-fold path and precepts, though those are clearly fundamental. The vicissitudes of life require difficult choices, sometimes, including self-defense of one sort or another. The fundamentals serve as a guide in difficult situations, definitely. The practice of Buddhism in a sometimes hostile world is challenging and not so simple.
We don't close our eyes and cover our ears to make the bad stuff go away. We do just the opposite... we investigate our minds and why these things cause us such pain, begin to understand that we've been looking at things in the wrong way and start to see life with clarity.
But I'm speaking about when we're in-the-moment, and we see someone being abused, or having their abuse blamed on them, for negative past life karma. Not talking about ruminating about events after the fact. When you're in-the-moment, present as bad things are happening, you need to make a decision. Do you speak out to support the suffering one, or walk away? It's a moral decision. A very important one for Buddhists.
Can we agree on no more thought-experiments involving stabbing the Dalai Lama? Please??
I think that the practice of Buddhism could benefit many people but you would still have those who are very adept at using negative means to remain dominate.
Have you ever noticed the different dynamics present when working with a group
of people? I worked with a rotating group of people and observed a drastic change when you had enough negative personalities present. Same work load and conditions but less productive and unpleasant when working with them. When we had the positive people outnumber the negative ones- we got the most work done, people would help one another, and everyone, even the few nasties, were in good moods, happy even. That's why I think that it's important to try and stand up against the negative. It will never be easy but maybe worth the effort.
Namaste
Fascinating about your group-dynamics observations, BTW.
I would instead use a more mundane example such as betrayal by a friend. I had a friend who would come to me when she needed me but would turn on me when it suited her. Do I hate her? No. Do I want revenge? No. Would I try to embarrass her or cause her harm? No and No.
Now, do I allow her to keep treating me this way because, perhaps, I have bad karma with her? Heck No!
I don't see everyday rudeness and bad manners as something that I deserve from my own bad behavior in a past life.
Knowing that I did wrong to someone is painful for me. I am very hard on myself.
Being awake enough for realization to occur is a great gift and it will help us along on our path to enlightenment. Truth is essential for any such realization and transformation. What I see happening in our world is a trend to devalue and obscure truth.
Knowledge is of no use if it is not shared and applied where it is needed.
Namaste
Don't be hard on yourself, kayte; that's a form of attachment in itself. Just be mindful of your actions. Let go of the judging yourself.
I'm so glad we're no longer stabbing the Dalai Lama, if only in our imaginations!
I've experienced many weird dynamics in relationship to people. Maybe that is due to my past life mistakes. They are difficult experiences, but the opportunity to learn and observe are epic.
Namste
I've seen people using karma as an excuse for Schadenfreude-satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune. The Buddhist concept of mudita, "sympathetic joy" or "happiness in another's good fortune", could be the opposite of schadenfreude.
I consider this to be unhealthy for society and that it could lead to worse behavior. A slippery slope, if you will. Once people are no longer satisfied with merely laughing at another person's pain, will they seek to cause it?
Will unawakened people find this a new entertaining sport? I think we're seeing this already. There have been news stories of people committing suicide because someone intruded into their lives via Facebook, Youtube, or another form of privacy invasion.
It would be great if we could all respect one another but this is not a level playing field. I'm not advocating that anyone abandon their beliefs. I just find that doesn't always work the way we would like, in our complex, modern society.
Thank you for your efforts to help me understand karma. I know that I need to work on this.
Namsate
Namaste
Namaste