wanting not to want

aHappyNihilist

I'm trying to understand a pretty annoying apparent Buddhist paradox. How can you possibly free yourself from craving? The reason not to crave things is to free yourself, the reason to free yourself is to help achieve enlightenment, the reason to achieve enlightenment is that it makes you happy. But then aren't you just craving happiness?

please don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from all craving then free yourself from the craving to free yourself or something like that.. you would just be creating a new craving, the craving to free yourself from the craving to free yourself, all with the goal of happiness.

also don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from craving without wanting to free yourself from craving, because it is impossible to do something on purpose without wanting to do it. and if you do it by accident then what's the use of buddhism?

MindGate

compassionate_warrior quote:

"The point is to feel pain when pain arises, hunger when hunger arises, etc., but you don't dwell on it and get wrapped up in it. It's the getting wrapped up in the pain that causes the suffering. You don't deny the pain, either. Just observe the pain and learn the lesson it has to teach, address the imbalance, and move on."

aHappyNihilist

that doesn't really answer the question about craving.

compassionate_warrior

You don't want to free yourself from craving Enlightenment or Liberation, that's "skillful attachment". You want to free yourself from "unskillful attachment", i.e. that which causes suffering.

MindGate

We NEED to crave things or we'd die. But, Buddhists say "you don't dwell on it and get wrapped up in it. It's the getting wrapped up in the [craving] that causes the suffering."

--you don't dwell on it and get wrapped up in it.--

aHappyNihilist

to me it seems that desire for liberation causes suffering in the same way that desire for something like money does. The only difference is that with the "skillful" attachment you can justify it to yourself, but the pain of craving is still there.

Cloud

It starts with wanting to be happy; that's what most people associate with the alleviation of dukkha/suffering... its opposite, happiness. At a more advanced stage that happiness is also seen as something that is craved, and that causes dukkha, and so the balance point between pleasure and pain, joy and sorrow, etc., becomes the goal. That is Nirvana; the non-clinging mind.

You're right that you have to want enlightenment, but it's a want coupled with Right View; you want to end wanting, to realize the truth, and this has been said to be a skillful form of wanting.

aHappyNihilist

yes i see that, but how have you ended craving, it seems you've just replaced it with a different craving.

MindGate

"to me it seems that desire for liberation causes suffering in the same way that desire for something like money does."

I'm not so sure about that.

Analogy:

You want to learn about the civil war, so you get a book on it. Do you grudgingly read through the book, unwillingly, not wanting to? No! You want to read the book, you want to learn about the war or you wouldn't read.

Desire for liberation I presume is like that. You don't hate every moment you're trying to attain it, you're learning all the way through.

compassionate_warrior

Well, just speaking for myself, not being an expert, I'd say "crave" isn't the right word in relation to Liberation. One aims for that goal, one orients one's life to facilitate reaching the goal. One doesn't dwell on the desire, one just goes about one's business.

Cloud

@aHappyNihilist: You talk like there's no end to it, but what do you think Nirvana is? That's the end-point.

aHappyNihilist

The problem with that analogy is that at the end you have actually achieved your goal, and in the process you understand that you are achieving it, but with the desire for liberation you can't achieve your goal because you desire liberation, something which keeps you from liberation making you desire it all the more intensely.

also the desire for liberation is definitely a cause of suffering, even at this moment i am trying to understand it, i am enjoying the conversation, the process of learning, but the desire to know is still a suffering.

Warrior - The very fact that your changing the orientation of your life suggests a desire of a certain goal. You are doing this all out of a basic motivation of a desire for nirvana - happiness - pleasure.

Cloud - The end apparently comes when craving ceases to exist, i'm trying to understand how craving can cease to exist. I believe that there is an end but I don't understand how it can be achieved. Don't you see the paradox in craving to end craving?

Cloud

It's not a paradox, it's a wall for someone who views it as a paradox. It's the desire to end suffering, and that is where the path leads and is attainable in this life. You can't just solve your problems with the snap of your fingers... it takes work, and for that you need to want it. If you don't want to end your suffering, or aren't suffering enough to feel that you need to, that's okay! No one's going to judge you.

Craving ends when you realize why you crave and the fallacies involved in those cravings; the delusion involved. When the mind sees clearly, it stops. It's not like you can say "okay mind, stop craving!"... the mind itself has to transform through understanding and practice. Enlightenment is akin to a child putting their hand into the fire; before that, they had only their parents word for it and didn't understand pain. After that do you think they'd do it again? No. Same goes for us. When we realize on a profound experiential level how we suffer, and how our craving is tied to that, we cease to crave. Done. Finito.

compassionate_warrior

Sure, (I see your paradox), but my view is that I don't dwell on the craving. I take life as it comes, and do my best every day. I don't think about the craving, I wouldn't even call it craving. If you crave Liberation, you won't be able to enjoy your day, you'll be so focussed on the craving, and on the fact that craving is causing suffering, etc. Relax. Lighten up. Enjoy.

aHappyNihilist

You didn't really explain how it is not a paradox, just gave me a condescending answer about not working hard enough. If you can't explain it then how can you talk down to me...

warrior, i understand what your trying to say but my point is how can you go about life as a buddhist when your only motivation is a desire for happiness. You talk about not thinking about it but how can you say, meditate without wanting to meditate. how can you do anything relating to buddhism without wanting, craving liberation?

compassionate_warrior

That's not what I said at all. It's not a paradox, because it's not craving. And you sounded like what you perceive to be craving was causing you suffering, so I was giving you some heartfelt advice about how to avoid stressing out about the craving and the unrealized goal of Liberation, and all that. No condescending at all. We're not supposed to "grasp" at Enlightenment, to use a Tibetan term, as in clinging, perhaps desperately. Well, that's how I see it, anyway. Does anyone have a sutra to quote regarding the wish for Enlightenment?

OK, but there is a bit of a paradox, in the Buddha being attached to the idea of realizing Enlightenment, or non-attachment, to use slightly different terms. You're right. One needs the desire because it provides motivation, but when one reaches the goal, the attachment (or craving) dissolves. The analogy of a raft has been used; the wish for Liberation is a raft, but once you realize the goal, you no longer need the raft.

I don't see the desire to know as a suffering. I see the path as something enjoyable. It sounds to me like you're stressing out about wanting to reach the goal (maybe I'm wrong about that?), so I gave you some advice to take it a little more lightly, loosen your grip a little so you can enjoy the process, as you said you're able to do to some extent.

aHappyNihilist

Hmm. Cloud that's the first answer that seems to make sense. your edited reply.
So it comes as a revelation after much work, in which you must crave liberation. After you finally fully understand the nature of craving all craving ceases.

oh and my first paragraph in the last comment was directed to cloud

Cloud

Here's one person's take on the confusion: http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/1255

Cloud

@aHappyNihilist: Here's another way I'd put it: In Buddhism, there are six senses, not five. What's the extra one? Mind. That's how the fire example makes sense. The mind can experience too, and those experiences are just as real as the pain of putting your hand into the fire -- the insights gained in meditative practices in all forms of Buddhism are working toward such mental experiences. When the mind "knows", it adjusts accordingly. The path is one long procession of small adjustments, leading toward a state of non-clinging and non-duality.

aHappyNihilist

i like your answer more, its more honest. I don't think you can desire a new car, or anything once your enlightened. But working toward that goal does require a certain beneficial craving and once you reach that goal all craving ceases.
Once you have no more desire for anything you have already reached the goal of liberation and so you can no longer crave it.

Cloud

Exactly. There. Thank you for providing us this opportunity!

aHappyNihilist

I think it's a subconscious thing, once your subconscious mind fully understands the nature of craving it can no longer crave, but affecting your subconscious mind is sort of the process of buddhism.

yea thanks for helping, i have a really hard time doing anything without a rational understanding of why i should do it, or without knowing whether i'm actually seeking something of value.

compassionate_warrior

oh and my first paragraph in the last comment was directed to cloud

oops, ok. We're all writing and posting at once. Confusion can happen.

Cloud

Spot on. We can't directly modify the subconscious so we must skillfully choose our thoughts, words and actions to cause change at that level, or plant the seeds for future change.

TheJourney

Once you understand craving you can master craving. You can actually do without craving. It's ultimate happiness, because during the path you thought that you should act a certain way that is "correct." Basically you continued to limit your freedom. Once craving ceases the world opens up to you.

Jason

I'm trying to understand a pretty annoying apparent Buddhist paradox. How can you possibly free yourself from craving? The reason not to crave things is to free yourself, the reason to free yourself is to help achieve enlightenment, the reason to achieve enlightenment is that it makes you happy. But then aren't you just craving happiness?

please don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from all craving then free yourself from the craving to free yourself or something like that.. you would just be creating a new craving, the craving to free yourself from the craving to free yourself, all with the goal of happiness.

also don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from craving without wanting to free yourself from craving, because it is impossible to do something on purpose without wanting to do it. and if you do it by accident then what's the use of buddhism?

I think part of the problem here is that you seem to be conflating desire (chanda) and craving (tahna), but desire and craving are actually two different but closely related aspects of our psychology. Desires is a neutral term, and one generally has to have the desire to achieve a goal in order to achieve it, even nibbana (SN 51.15); whereas the Pali word for craving, tahna (literally 'thirst'), is something that's directly tied to suffering.

The second noble truth states that the origination of suffering is "the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming" (SN 56.11). As Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains in Wings to Awakening:

Craving for sensuality, here, means the desire for sensual objects. Craving for becoming means the desire for the formation of states or realms of being that are not currently happening, while craving for non-becoming means the desire for the destruction or halting of any that are. "Passion and delight," here, is apparently a synonym for the "desire and passion" for the five aggregates that constitutes clinging/sustenance [III/H/ii].

Desire, on the other hand, can be skillful (kusala) or unskillful (akusala) depending on the context. The desire for happiness, especially long-term welfare and happiness, is actually an important part of the Buddhist path. Moreover, desire is listed as one of the four bases of power (iddhipada), which themselves are included in the seven sets of qualities that lead to the end of suffering (MN 103). The four qualities listed in the bases of power are desire, persistence, intent and discrimination. In Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu points to this passage:

There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' (Similarly with concentration founded on persistence, intent, and discrimination.)

He goes on to explain that, "This passage shows that the problem lies not in the desire, effort, intent or discrimination, but in the fact that these qualities can be unskillfully applied or improperly tuned to their task."

If we take a look at the exchange between Ananda and the brahmin Unnabha in SN 51.15, for example, we can see that the attainment of the goal is indeed achieved through desire, even though paradoxically, the goal is said to be the abandoning of desire. That's because at the end of the path desire, as well as the other three bases of power, subside on their own. As Ananda explains at the end of SN 51.15:

He earlier had the desire for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding desire subsided. He earlier had aroused energy for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding energy subsided. He earlier had made up his mind to attain arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding resolution subsided. He earlier had made an investigation for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding investigation subsided. (Bodhi)

compassionate_warrior

OK, Jason. But what's the difference between the desire for liberation, and the "craving of becoming"? I understand the distinction between desire as motivation to follow the path, and craving sensual gratification. But one of your quotes mentions "the craving of becoming". That sounds like the same thing as craving an Enlightened state.

(I don't mean to be a stickler, in fact, I probably agree with you, as I commented earlier that "craving" wasn't the right word. But then this quote came up with the term "craving of becoming". Can you clarify?)

Jason

OK, Jason. But what's the difference between the desire for liberation, and the "craving of becoming"? I understand the distinction between desire as motivation to follow the path, and craving sensual gratification. But one of your quotes mentions "the craving of becoming". That sounds like the same thing as craving an Enlightened state.

(I don't mean to be a stickler, in fact, I probably agree with you, as I commented earlier that "craving" wasn't the right word. But then this quote came of with the term "craving of becoming". Can you clarify?)

That's a good question. The answer does present us with somewhat of a paradox, however. I suggest checking out Thanissaro Bhikkhu's book The Paradox of Becoming for a detailed look at what the Buddha means when talking about becoming (bhava) and how he resolves this seeming paradox. (You can find a pdf version here.)

TheJourney

There is nothing to want. That's how you move past clinging. It's impossible to cling, because there is nothing to cling to.

Jeffrey

Notice all of this is thinking. Just looking at the OP. The thinking is impermanent so you will see that your craving too is impermanent. Why would you crave something that will let you down? You use it for the here and now, but that is not what is meant by craving. You also learn what helps you and hurts you. Thats not craving to wish yourself to be free from suffering. Well if it is then it will be suffering and you learn to practice. That frustration with suffering is part of the path. It is good to think about that paradox. Remember buddhism is expressed in concepts and those are always flawed. Its like you are going to take a boat across the ocean and you start chopping holes in the base of the boat. And then you say this boat is no good.

Theres nothing wrong with gently testing the boat. But as an idea there is not an airtight theory for a sure thing. There are always premises such as the buddha was a buddha that cannot be proven with concepts.

compassionate_warrior

Nothing to cling to? Why, TJ?

(Thanks, Jason.)

TheJourney

Because all there is is what is. What is is not a constant. It's motion. Nothing is permanent, so what is there to cling to?

compassionate_warrior

Well, people manage to cling to other people. They cling to their significant other. Some cling to their status. There's lots of stuff people can and do cling to. That's the nature of samsara. They don't know that everything is impermanent. That doesn't stop them from clinging.

TheJourney

Right. But there is only clinging subjectively.

compassionate_warrior

Right. But there is only clinging subjectively.

Please explain.

TheJourney

Right. But there is only clinging subjectively.

Please explain.

Clinging is a word. It is a concept. It has no ultimate truth.

Jeffrey

I agree with compassionate warrior that impermanence is what we experience. Same with clinging. We also experience clinging to impermanent concepts. Its all very interesting. I'm bored and my coffee is cold. I don't know why a say that. Idle chatter! Bad Buddhist! Just kidding.. I like thinking about these questions

compassionate_warrior

Clinging is a word. It is a concept. It has no ultimate truth.

And yet, clinging happens, and it has real consequences; it causes suffering. Of course, people cause that suffering themselves, their minds cause it. Their minds cause the clinging. (Is that what you mean, by there's only clinging subjectively?) But dismissing it as just being subjective, or "relative", is a bit facile, I think.

(Hi, Jeffrey. )

TheJourney

It's no less real than anything else. But it is not ultimately true. Nothing is.

compassionate_warrior

I'm not sure why we're still discussing this, anyway. I had the impression Nihilist was satisfied long ago, with Cloud's answers to his questions.

"What is there to cling to?" Lots of stuff. Like I said, people can and do cling to things/people. Those people and things are as real as the speeding car heading our way when we cross the street, as I brought up earlier on another thread.

compassionate_warrior

No, it's not ultimately true, but in our mundane existence, it's real.

TheJourney

Ok

compassionate_warrior

Yay

Goodnight, TJ. It's been a long and fruitful day, I'd say. Good work.

TheJourney

Yea man now I just need to go to sleep. lol.