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Buddhists who do not believe in rebirth
zidangus
Veteran
I have noticed that a lot of members who have stated that they are Buddhists, have said that they do not believe in the concept of rebirth. I do believe in rebirth, and I respect peoples views on this matter, but It would be interesting to know answers to questions such as, why they believe in Buddhism but not rebirth ?, what they feel the point of their life is if they do not believe that there is rebirth when they die ? Do they believe in karma ? do they believe in Nirvana ? I myself find it hard to believe in the concept of Nirvana without the concept of rebirth, they kind of depend on each other as all things do.
Thanks for any replies
Metta to all Sentient Beings
Thanks for any replies
Metta to all Sentient Beings
0
Comments
Yes, we seem a surprisingly common bunch here!:)
>>>>I do believe in rebirth, and I respect peoples views on this matter.
Good, and likewise. its important to remember we can never know for certain either way.
>>>But It would be interesting to know answers to questions such as: Why they believe in Buddhism but not rebirth ?
Well my view on this is quite extreme. I believe that the Buddha taught that rebirth was wrong view - a delusion the attachment to which causes Dukka just like all delusions. In fact I think this is the prime delusion.
I think there are clues to to this in the texts, but mainly i think rebirth has been inserted into the doctrine in the millenia after his death.
In summary, I think that the Buddha was saying that we must escape the IDEA of samara rather than the hindu notion of samsara.
>>>what they feel the point of their life is if they do not believe that there is rebirth when they die ?
There is no point to life other than to increase the happiness, truth and peace in the world. But this truth is liberating not negitavising! To me it says, "This is our only life, the house is burning, live it in dharma."
>>>>Do they believe in karma ?
Yes of course:) As interdependent moral/mental/spiritual causation.
>>>>Do they believe in Nirvana ?
Yes, as an idealised freedom from suffering/attachment/ignorance. the buddha lived 50 years in nibbana, eating milk rice and getting tired and ill.
namaste
There is not a question of believing or not believing in rebirth. There is a question of how well you have come to understand what rebirth is and how the truth of its function leads to one's suffering.
Have a ponder of the idea that he didn't teach rebirth. Contemplate the Mirror of Dharma gift he gives Ananda (In the MP suttra) and see what it is this gives.
We Buddhists spend so long trying to extinguish attachment, what of the attachment to an afterlife?
I do, however, see rebirth all around and within me. I see people entering Nirvana and I see enlightened people who have never had anything to do with Buddhism. Basically, I believe Buddha spoke in metaphors and similes.
Don't get me wrong, I am not picking and choosing, it's simply the only way that Buddhism makes sense to me.
:scratch: The Budddha taught the goal or purpose of the spiritual life is the unshakeable freedom of mind; a mind that is not agitated by anything. So how is the point of our life related to rebirth?
:scratch: Karma is about action & its resuts. The Buddha declared karma is intention & from karma arises three results, namely, a result in the here & now, a result in the future & a result later on.
For example, if we drink alcohol, the result in the here & now is pleasure. The result in the future will be a hangover or headache. The result after that will be craving for alcohol or addiction. The result is taking birth as an addicted 'hungry ghost'.
Or if we rob a bank, the immediate result is pleasure of having money. The future result is fear of being caught. The result is taking birth as a 'fearful demon'. The later result may be a lifetime in a prison cell. This later result is taking birth as a inhabitant of 'hell'.
So how is the belief in karma related to rebirth after death?
:scratch:
There is no merging for me, if you don't see this you don't see the dharma I see.
The middle path also embraces practise in the face of suffering this suffering namely being the continous rebirth and death we have experienced life after life and metaphorically in this life as well.
It begs the question that if there are those whom do not do not beleive in rebirth or any form of afterlife experience then why do they practise the path to eliminate suffering when one thinks that consciousness only arises in dependence upon the factors of this existance and nothing more ? Surely death would be the quicker release !
The first is 'moral nihilism', where a person believes actions are void of results; that there is no efficacy of karma; where unskilful actions will not lead to the other worlds, namely, ghost (addiction), animal (stupidity) & hell (suffering).
The second is 'spiritual nihilism', where a person believes death will end their suffering (rather than the practise of the noble eightfold path).
As for your meaning of 'nihilism' Caz Namyaw, that is your own; it is your own world (loka).
We could end it all now, and end suffering.
Or we could spend these lives dreaming of heavens or mystical nibbanas.
Both ways are unwholesome. The middle way is the way between them.
Life is special. Life is short.
>>>>>It begs the question that if there are those whom do not do not beleive in rebirth or any form of afterlife experience then why do they practise the path to eliminate suffering when one thinks that consciousness only arises in dependence upon the factors of this existance and nothing more ? Surely death would be the quicker release!
No, because even though the gloomy Buddhist orthodoxy has painted life as suffering and not much else, the reality is that along side dukka is the real and vibrant possibility of Sukka; peace and joy and fun and love and friendship happiness. Fragile and empty and impermanent as they are, they still are.
Sadly, this part of dharma doesn't fit to well with the monastic life that has shaped what remains of the buddha's teachings.
Cheer up;)
The Buddha advised in the very instant we regard what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched and experienced by the mind as impermanent & not-self, suffering will end.
For suffering to end by ending self-view occurs far quicker than it takes for a human being to commit suicide.
If we believe in takes many lifetimes to free the mind from suffering, this will be a hindrance to our practise. In reality, it takes one moment.
It is essential we develop the supreme confidence in the efficacy of the Buddha-Dhamma.
Best wishes
Nonsense, utter nonsense. This is the talk of one who wishes we were spiritually enslaved.
I get the impression the Buddha was pretty happy.
There's the temporary happiness you get from materialistic gains and then there's the permanent happiness you get from removing everything that clouds it.
Am I wrong?
And why do you think the Buddha was very happy ? Was it because he stayed in his palace and enjoyed samsara and its deceptive pleasures or was it because he realized their deceptiveness and worked to find the happiness that is free of samsara ? Free of suffering ?
Yes, sorry, you are right, my bad. The point I was trying to make, though did so ad bacculum more than hominem, was that telling people they can't really be happy without rebirth implies chaining us to the idea of rebirth in order to have happiness. Which I think is Wrong Dharma.
>>>And why do you think the Buddha was very happy ? Was it because he stayed in his palace and enjoyed samsara and its deceptive pleasures or was it because he realized their deceptiveness and worked to find the happiness that is free of samsara ? Free of suffering ?
Clearly the latter. But you make the cumbersome mistake of lumping sense pleasures et al with other pleasures, such as friendship, challenge, peace, love, loving, fun and contemplation.
peace
This is a really good point I hadn't considered. To say "Why not kill youself and end suffering" is a mistaken ego view isn't it.
namaste
No.
It does not take one moment to commit suicide. Human beings ponder over suicide for lengths of time.
The Buddha advised an act of mental action is far more powerful than an act of bodily action. The Buddha advised a mind moment is far more quicker than the time span of a bodily action.
We have compassion for others by advising them practising right view will release them from suffering.
It is important for those who suffer to have full confidence there is a way to end suffering via refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha.
All the best
DD
The Buddha found happiness of mind.
The samsara his mind was free from was the samsara of greed, hatred & delusion.
Sure I agree with you DD right view is key so tell me this...
If one holds the view that there is only one life of existance and upon the ceasing of the causes for life I shall existinguish and nothing futher shall occur to I Suffering and happiness alike, Then what is to stop those whom hold the Nihilistic view from saying...The path Buddha taught of freedom from suffering is strenuous to accomplish but because suffering ceases as well at the
time of death if my suffering is so great I shall no longer have to experience such upon death.
If one expounds the view of a single existance and a complete ceasing of Self at the time of death and the complete non existance of action and effect transmigrating and forming the causes for new existance to arise where self-becomes again then why would such a person wish to practise the path to freedom from suffering for oneself or others if the view of Nihilism holds that at the time of death everything shall cease be it happiness, sadness, or neutral feeling ?
To beleive this Nihilism is not the middle path, One may as well commit suicide if they hold the view that the ceasing of suffering (Nivarna) and the ceasing of the physical aggregates to sustain existance of self are the same thing.
b) Because suffering still exists in human society, any "rebirth" into that society will necessarily entail suffering! What we do now does affect future conditions, regardless of how we choose to think of rebirth.
If you know selfless rebirth, you look to the whole and not yourself. If still looking to yourself, this means Anatta has not been fully penetrated. Either way, both points above hold true; suicide is not a skillful action that has no unwholesome results. Simply thinking this is your only life is not reason for suicide either; there are many atheists who think this way who still find life fulfilling.
My two cents.
Namaste
a) I think you will find that if one is dead you can beat the corpse all you like and they wont twitch or feel pain mental or phycial ? How could they when there is no conscious activity ?! Of course suicide can negatively impact others lives but if one holds a real Nihilist view then the same solution to the problem will end others suffering just as well will it not ? All things are pointless in the face of total Annihilation...To a Nihilist really what would be the point of practising Buddhadharma when the Buddhas aim is to free us from our suffering, A bullet to the head ends brain activity in most cases once this corpse becomes non functional it will no longer suffer dont forget there is NO I to suffer a teaching taken this way on No self is but futher food for destruction for one whom holds the pointlessness of all things in the face of Anihilation is it not ?
b) Suffering may well exist but to a Nihilist what better way to cease it then death ? Rebirth ? oh becareful we wouldnt want to affirm a beleif in that...Dont forget this is Nihilism the view that holds no rebirth but only the complete ceasing of everything in the face of death, There is no going back from this or forward from it to affirm a usefulness for Buddhadharma one has to come up with a goal that cannot be topped by death to one whom would beleive that upon death all suffering ceases anyway and no rebirth occurs.
Sure there are many atheists whom hold the view that there is no rebirth either they would be able enjoy life or hate it and die. But in the face of death to a Nihilist wether he is atheistic or not will not matter because wether he or she has lived a life of non virtue or faultless virtue it will amount to nothing it will all cease, I will cease, Others will cease. So what point is the working for anything when an all ending death takes you ?
That is unless any Buddhists out their would like to affirm that there is rebirth as traditionally taught and that suffering will go on and on transmigration after transmigration. No escape from suffering through death but only through Nivarna...
That is more of a middle way that has been traditionally taught within buddhism minding the semantics of various sects about it rather then a quasi-nihilism of no self and pointless activity in the face of a silence about an after existance of this selfs passing...:)
That some would stretch Rebirth into eternalism is not surprising. We cling to this belief because we mistakenly think it gives us some kind of security when in fact it creates all kinds of suffering. Through meditation we can begin to see.
"a) I think you will find that if one is dead you can beat the corpse all you like and they wont twitch or feel pain mental or phycial ? How could they when there is no conscious activity ?! Of course suicide can negatively impact others lives but if one holds a real Nihilist view then the same solution to the problem will end others suffering just as well will it not ? All things are pointless in the face of total Annihilation...To a Nihilist really what would be the point of practising Buddhadharma when the Buddhas aim is to free us from our suffering, A bullet to the head ends brain activity in most cases once this corpse becomes non functional it will no longer suffer dont forget there is NO I to suffer a teaching taken this way on No self is but futher food for destruction for one whom holds the pointlessness of all things in the face of Anihilation is it not ? "
Indeed things are pointless once oblivion has come, but until then all things have just as much of a point as they do in buddhism or even Abrahamic monotheistic religions.
Buddhism is attractive because it promises liberation from suffering through realization of dharma. Christianity is attractive because it promises liberation from suffering through heaven. The "values" held in these religions still come down to happiness and suffering. A buddhist sees that his actions have consequences for himself and that by non-clinging and compassion he can reach nibanna. a christian sees that by not - sinning he can reach heaven, essentially equivalent to nibanna. The goal is happiness in either situation. A nihilist sees that he can also feel happiness, he likes it, so he may as well attempt to achieve it. I, a nihilist, have found that buddhism is the best path to this happiness, and ironically that by not clinging to my happiness i am better suited to achieve it. I still attempt to achieve happiness but, understanding buddhist teachings have learned to have equanimity toward the results. The point is happiness is always the goal.
Where buddhism and nihilism split is in the question of whether happiness has objective or subjective value. In the case of buddhism, with the belief that your consciousness will never end, one can be more comfortable that what you are doing now will always have value, not just for a certain period of time have value. Nihilists wish to feel happiness but don't believe happiness will always be a value, it is only a value in circumstances where it can be felt and enjoyed circumstances that will end after death. you still value happiness, subjectively, while you are alive and because kindness, non-self etc. are ingredients to that happiness they can be followed. I might note here that the nihilistic view of afterlife, or absence thereof is better backed by science.
In nihilism there is no reason not to commit suicide, but there is also no reason to commit suicide because you are bringing yourself less felt happiness by ending your life.
The negative value of suffering is no longer existent once the subjective circumstances giving it value cease to exist. Suffering does not matter once it is not felt so suicide gives you nothing. Only takes away from you happiness. You gain no peace from suicide because once in oblivion you can feel no sense of peace.
Note: the purpose of this post was to clarify logic extrapolated from the nihilistic perspective that all values are subjective rather than objective and to explain that even under nihilistic philosophy suicide is still foolish irrational and illogical.
This sort of wrong view is being perpetuated in a number of Buddhist forums with no basis whatsoever. In fact, when you talk to accomplished monks, ones that can attain jhana, there is no question of whether rebirth occurs and they talk about it openly. They don't relate their own past lives, however, they do say it's possible to recall past lives and have taught people how to do this. Being able to attain the jhanas is required, however, so it's not a trivial matter that anyone can just do easily.
It is a hard thing to grasp, I agree. Especially when we all want to belive in an afterlife, it is the most signifigant of spiritual beliefs.
None of us want to die.
None of us want death to be the end.
And so we cling and build bastions around these beliefs.
That is the personal side of why you find it so hard.
But there is another side, and this is the cultural/political/economic/social side. Namely, the greatest, easiest way to homogenise populations, to control people en mass, is to make them believe that if they compromise their life in this life they will get benefit in some future life.
We want to believe in an afterlife.
Culture want's us to believe in an afterlife.
>>>and that the experience of existence ends with this one lifetime (nihilism).
I think if you think this you don't understand the "middle" part of the middle path.
Nihilism is not the belief in one life, it is the belief that there is no value. The buddha showed this is wrong, there are values, they arise from the three foundations and are realised in experince by sukka.
>>>>>In the suttas the Buddha talks about rebirth
A trio of points on this claim:
1) Rebirth is very rare as a concept in the suttras, especially the one's generally cited as predominate, like the first sermon.
2) Rebirth doesn't have a role in the four noble truths or the noble eightfold path.
3) On the hypothesis that Buddha's teachings were influenced by the hindu culture after his death it should be expected that rebirth will augment the teahcings. The solution to this is given in the Kalama Suttra.
>>>This sort of wrong view is being perpetuated in a number of Buddhist forums with no basis whatsoever.
I disagree. I think there is a huge basis for this view, scriptural, spiritual, dharmic, historic and philosophical. Private Message me if you would like to discuss this, I am done discussing it in public as it only leads to strife for all:)
>>>>>In fact, when you talk to accomplished monks, ones that can attain jhana, there is no question of whether rebirth occurs and they talk about it openly.
I have done this, in person, the answers I had were one of the turning points in my belief on this issue. Even were this not the case, I believe I should not go "by the thought, 'This monk is our teacher....'" (Kalama Suttra).
>>>>They don't relate their own past lives, however, they do say it's possible to recall past lives and have taught people how to do this.
And Christians experience the holy spirit, and shamans the spirits of the jaguar, and spiritualists the spirit of Uncle Albert... what makes the Buddhist right and these others wrong?