Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
"But the spark would have caused the fire even if it was never seen. even if there were no observers in existance."
It depends what you mean. I guess its like that "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it does it make a sound". I don't think this can exactly be answered.
But wouldn't you say that a book that is read is a different event than a book that is never read? They are two different things. Just like a lightning bolt that hits a tree is different than one that hits a lighting rod.
When I say "a fire" I am talking about an event that is known by a consciousness.
Be aware that there are different schools of thought regarding what reality means in context of a consciousness or not in buddhism. And I will tell you I found something that will ease anxiety at people who have a different view than you. If you go into a teaching or view with a good attitude of non-harming. Even if your view is not perfect its ok. If you go lightly without so much heavily attaching to a view you and others will suffer less. So you don't have to worry that some view is wrong. Because we are all different we all practice differently and we can find a good way for us.
I am more familiar with the Tibetan form of buddhism and even just in that there is a lot of diversity in how the universe is viewed as a reality inside or outside or relative to a sentient being. I think its an interesting question to think about and I notice that the connection between the here and now is often lost. I usually worry more about teachings that affect my life but these are interesting questions.
I am not aware of the different views within the Therevada or the teachers thereof.
"I just don't get any of this." "If it is Wrong View of karma then yes."
Its not a wrong or right view because it is a truth. It is wrong or right because the view points to a skillful action or relief of suffering. Grasping heavily to right views can also cause suffering. For example if you believe people should be compassionate but you are making yourself a nuisance criticising people who are uncompassionate (to you). Then you are taking a view of the value of compassion but using it unskillfully. The attachment to the view is what drives you to continue to cause harm even though you can see it is harm. Just like attachment to racism, the racist can see they are harming, but they are attached to the view. They may even have a tender side they are just attached to a view.
>>>>"Jeffrey">>>>I guess its like that "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it does it make a sound". I don't think this can exactly be answered.
what is wrong with:
If a tree falls in a forest it will create waves that will spread out in the air.
If these waves were to interact with a person, they may experience those waves as sound.
If these waves do not interact with a person then there will be no experience of sound.
Either way, if a tree falls, a tree falls:)
>>>But wouldn't you say that a book that is read is a different event than a book that is never read?
I hadn't heard of that before.
I guess my first answer after not much thought is that all things are different at all times, so yes, I would say it is different, but probably trivially so.
>>They are two different things.
Neither are things.
>>>Be aware that there are different schools of thought regarding what reality means in context of a consciousness or not in buddhism.
I will doubt them all until I cannot doubt one.
>>>>I think its an interesting question to think about and I notice that the connection between the here and now is often lost.
Isn't it! I think ekhart tolle is a bit not-for-me, but I haven't found anyone come close to his speaking about the "now".
>>>It is wrong or right because the view points to a skillful action or relief of suffering.
I would add to that, "...and is consistent with the rest of the path."
>>>Just like attachment to racism, the racist can see they are harming, but they are attached to the view.
Yes, for sure.
I think the idea of "knowledge filters" applies well to attachment to views based dukka.
I am using thing as a broad word like "dharma" in one of its meaning. Like phenomenon. I think we are on the same page. Due to the 3 marks nothing can be viewed in isolation strictly speaking so whether a sound is heard or not is a question of connection between a sense organ sound waves and mind. Neither of those 3 have any inherent existence in themselves. That is the broader meaning of non-self. It applies to all dharmas (phenomenon) and not just humans or sentient beings..
Good points though I am just responding One more cup of coffee!
Neither of those 3 have any inherent existence in themselves.
Yes, exactly. They are a property of all things that can exist, rather than existing in themselves. Perhaps in the same was that quantity is a property of existence, and quality is not.
>>>>It applies to all dharmas (phenomenon) and not just humans or sentient beings..
Yes, it is objective emptiness/interconnectedness, an atom has it. There is no atom, only parts, there is no thinker, only thoughts.
Traditionally wisdom of emptiness is fused with compassion.. So its not a way to 'know the answer', but a way to liberate yourself or possibly other beings from suffering. I know you know that I just like to remind myself or anyone of that.
If wisdom of emptiness is just another metaphysics then it is less important than your grandmas recipe for soup because at least you can make and eat the soup. Well thats not true some people enjoy thinking more than eating haha!
0
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
"don't say poor children, they must have done something truly horrible in a past life to be born like that."
As was explained on other threads, this sort of thing is a wrong interpretation of karma.
oh, i know. i was merely bringing it up because i think that this is one of the extremist traps that people can fall into when they take things too literally. but that is just my interpretation. you can say that it is a wrong view, but the fact remains that there are still people in the world who hold this to be right view.
How karma works within one lifetime is well understood, I think. It's how it affects other lifetimes where the confusion comes in. Maybe that's what you mean by "non-magical" and "magical" karma. (@ Thickpaper)
On the "Karma--That's What You Get!" thread, Federica posts the following:
The Buddha said "the Laws and workings of Kamma are an unconjecturable and vexatious problem", and "cannot be divined". She further states that anyone claiming to understand karma is putting themselves above the wisdom of the Buddha. Any lama who would say (as many, in fact do) that the circumstances a baby is born into are the result of past karma "isn't very learned", or words to that effect.
Comments
It depends what you mean. I guess its like that "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it does it make a sound". I don't think this can exactly be answered.
But wouldn't you say that a book that is read is a different event than a book that is never read? They are two different things. Just like a lightning bolt that hits a tree is different than one that hits a lighting rod.
When I say "a fire" I am talking about an event that is known by a consciousness.
Be aware that there are different schools of thought regarding what reality means in context of a consciousness or not in buddhism. And I will tell you I found something that will ease anxiety at people who have a different view than you. If you go into a teaching or view with a good attitude of non-harming. Even if your view is not perfect its ok. If you go lightly without so much heavily attaching to a view you and others will suffer less. So you don't have to worry that some view is wrong. Because we are all different we all practice differently and we can find a good way for us.
I am more familiar with the Tibetan form of buddhism and even just in that there is a lot of diversity in how the universe is viewed as a reality inside or outside or relative to a sentient being. I think its an interesting question to think about and I notice that the connection between the here and now is often lost. I usually worry more about teachings that affect my life but these are interesting questions.
I am not aware of the different views within the Therevada or the teachers thereof.
"I just don't get any of this."
"If it is Wrong View of karma then yes."
Its not a wrong or right view because it is a truth. It is wrong or right because the view points to a skillful action or relief of suffering. Grasping heavily to right views can also cause suffering. For example if you believe people should be compassionate but you are making yourself a nuisance criticising people who are uncompassionate (to you). Then you are taking a view of the value of compassion but using it unskillfully. The attachment to the view is what drives you to continue to cause harm even though you can see it is harm. Just like attachment to racism, the racist can see they are harming, but they are attached to the view. They may even have a tender side they are just attached to a view.
what is wrong with:
If a tree falls in a forest it will create waves that will spread out in the air.
If these waves were to interact with a person, they may experience those waves as sound.
If these waves do not interact with a person then there will be no experience of sound.
Either way, if a tree falls, a tree falls:)
>>>But wouldn't you say that a book that is read is a different event than a book that is never read?
I hadn't heard of that before.
I guess my first answer after not much thought is that all things are different at all times, so yes, I would say it is different, but probably trivially so.
>>They are two different things.
Neither are things.
>>>Be aware that there are different schools of thought regarding what reality means in context of a consciousness or not in buddhism.
I will doubt them all until I cannot doubt one.
>>>>I think its an interesting question to think about and I notice that the connection between the here and now is often lost.
Isn't it! I think ekhart tolle is a bit not-for-me, but I haven't found anyone come close to his speaking about the "now".
>>>It is wrong or right because the view points to a skillful action or relief of suffering.
I would add to that, "...and is consistent with the rest of the path."
>>>Just like attachment to racism, the racist can see they are harming, but they are attached to the view.
Yes, for sure.
I think the idea of "knowledge filters" applies well to attachment to views based dukka.
Good points though I am just responding
>>>>It applies to all dharmas (phenomenon) and not just humans or sentient beings..
Yes, it is objective emptiness/interconnectedness, an atom has it. There is no atom, only parts, there is no thinker, only thoughts.
Traditionally wisdom of emptiness is fused with compassion..
So its not a way to 'know the answer', but a way to liberate yourself or possibly other beings from suffering. I know you know that I just like to remind myself or anyone of that.
If wisdom of emptiness is just another metaphysics then it is less important than your grandmas recipe for soup because at least you can make and eat the soup. Well thats not true some people enjoy thinking more than eating haha!
On the "Karma--That's What You Get!" thread, Federica posts the following:
The Buddha said "the Laws and workings of Kamma are an unconjecturable and vexatious problem", and "cannot be divined". She further states that anyone claiming to understand karma is putting themselves above the wisdom of the Buddha. Any lama who would say (as many, in fact do) that the circumstances a baby is born into are the result of past karma "isn't very learned", or words to that effect.