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What gets carried over to new lifetime in rebirth/reincarnation?
Dakini
Veteran
Following up on the discussions on rebirth: what,exactly, gets carried over from past life to new life? Karma only? Consciousness? Not "self", according to HHDL. Energy of some sort? If so, what sort? (Obviously, this is a question for those who do belief in rebirth and/or reincarnation.) There's a good film that explains the TB view on this: "Tibetan Book of the Dead", on DVD, FYI.
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And how is not "self" carried over? :wtf:
At least... thats how I see it.
So, I don't see anything to be carried over. You could get into metaphysics and speculation, but thats all it is, speculation. The best argument people have is people remembering past lives, but prophets see God and Wiccans see fairies, so what makes them wrong? If we based our beliefs on what others experience, then we'd be ChristianWiccanZuespraisingJewMuslims.
So yes, I want to see how people respond to your question.
Me too: want to see how people respond.
anatta. no self, no soul no transmigration. the furthest buddha goes is to say that when your consciousness ends another is born and affected by it. but nothing is actually transferred.
now, i don't know if that can be transcended by some "mistake" there has been talk on these forums about monks recalling past lives and there are many uncanny cases of past life regression outside of buddhism. but what the buddha taught is that nothing is carried over.
furthermore when you die, what really dies? there is no YOU that dies, only the concept of you. the molecules, they don't die. the energy within you, it doesn't die, nothing really dies. the only difference is that the molecules are in a new formation, a formation that causes no consciousness, destroying all possibility for a sense of self. in that sense rebirth is constant.
if you only read one thing, it's this: Buddha taught that after death there is no transmigration, and further that there is nothing to be transmigrated.
The world with its conditions shapes you. You and the world grow together, creating new conditions. Those conditions are just-so at the moment of death. You're part of a stream of change, not separate from the stream. Know Anatta my friend.
"Nothing that has ever happened is truly lost"; referring to what, concretely? The fact that our actions have an impact on the world around us, so history is created and our actions have consequences that have transformational effects on people we interact with and on the society in which we participate? This is the only way I'm able to understand this statement. Unless you're referring to karma, the concept of karma that carries over from lifetime to lifetime, as opposed to the karma that applies to cause and effect within a single lifetime. If it carries over to future lives, that implies that there is some supernatural phenomenon where good and bad deeds, or compassionate and malicious or egoistic intent is recorded and carried over to the next lifetime. I don't think the exact nature of that can be determined or proven to the scientific mind. I suppose that's the part of Buddhism that involves faith.
I've always believed in reincarnation, the system of reincarnate lamas, but maybe I haven't been a good Buddhist in accepting these things unquestioningly. More recently a few people have told me that the selection of tulkus often is manipulated, the appointments (selections) were often politically-based, some people used to pay for tulkuships (like Steven Seagal apparently did), etc. But this is new information, I haven't decided what to make of it.
I've read some of the literature on the studies of children recalling past lives, and I also have a psychologist friend who said the daughter of one of her clients sometimes lectured her dad about "last time, when I was the mommy and you had to do what I said". This type of story is convincing to me, maybe not to others.
So, Cloud, he didn't teach reincarnation, but he taught rebirth?
It is here and now that we suffer; here and now that we can end suffering. Why worry about after-death? Do you worry about before-death? Think about what you were before you were born... think really hard. You'll realize that you're just a conditioned arising, you weren't born into the world but "from" the world; from the emptiness. Meditate on Anatta; use your mind's eye to dissect everything that you are, try to find anything that isn't dependent upon something else, isn't subject to conditioning, isn't subject to change.
This reality isn't about us, we're nothing special really (to put a Zen spin on it). Our wrong thinking, that we're better than the world, than the other animals, something special probably created by a god or gods, and that for some reason we get to live forever... it's all delusion and self-clinging/self-preservation views. People are afraid of admitting what science has been showing us, that life and death are natural and there's nothing different about us than other animals (except our intelligence level). The fact is, once you get past "self view" and accept the truth it's like a weight being set down. The fear itself is only born out of ignorance; remove the ignorance, the fear goes away to be replaced with peace.
all things are essentially energy, just formed separately. the substance (although calling it a substance implies 3 dimensionality when it is in fact of 0 dimensions) is subject to forces, electromagnetism strong force etc. this is all very much consistent with buddhism, although they missed the force of karma.
just the idea that all things are truly 1 single "substance" subject to certain constant forces, and with infinite separate universes, so consistent with buddhism. well thats more M-theory but anyway..
so essentially there is only this substance, existing in four spacial dimensions, parallel universes etc. great with buddhism.
energy. anything else is just a description of a certain formation of energy, or the description of its properties and effects.
every single other thing which exists can be broken down into energy, everything is just energy measured in a certain unit and formation, described in a concept
matter however is energy in a certain form (a vibrating string) it can move because it is now liable to forces and gravity, all coming from other strings of energy bound into certain forms.
if you really want to go into physics we can go there
The only reason I am even discussing with you is because you said that energy is the only non-concept. Well guess what? There is no word which is not a concept. Energy is a word. Energy is a concept. There is a reason all of the realized people say it's ineffable. It can't be summed up in words. Letalone the single word "energy." That being said, if it brings you peace then that's great! I only desire that you don't view your way of looking at it as the only way. That is why I made my comment. You can't think that your way of viewing things is the only way. Well you can. But then what makes you better than an ultra-conservative christian who believes all non-believers are going to hell? It's just your beliefs vs. his beliefs.
it's location can change but it travels at an infinite speed. there is no time when you can say it's moving but it can change it's location.
also i don't think you understand concepts vs. reality.
yes the word energy is a concept. but there is a thing to which the word energy is pointing which can not be reduced and so is not a concept. all other things are just formations of energy which can be described with concepts.
also your idea that multiple views can be right in terms of metaphysics is a logical fallacy. the fact is energy is the only non-concept. this is either true or not true.
also can you please do me a favor and not argue while at the same time acting as you are above argument, that's called being passive-aggressive. please pick one, passive or aggressive. being both is just a defense mechanism so that you can fight me while trying to seem as if your above fighting in general. if anything just be honest please. I'd love to have a real discussion without you turning it into a passive-aggressive stand off.
honestly i think you need to do a little introspection. are you really of transcendent of everything as you claim? are you really "enlightened?"
the fact that you can't have an argument without simultaneously trying to protect your reputation as above all us sleepers makes me really doubt that you have the slightest degree of authenticity.
but go ahead, tell me i can't affect you with my negativity or something. even if its negativity at least it's honest, i'm not claiming to be perfect or trying to look like i am.
so, discussion or no discussion?
there is nothing wrong with being aggressive it's when you are aggressive and also acting as if the conflict is below you that bugs me.
don't be worried about an impression of being aggressive, it's only human
the only people who are truly passive are enlightened people. they have no need for aggression
What you think of as "you" is not reincarnated... ever - thats it.
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And TJ, what I'm referring to is: When people, or at least I do, think of reincarnation, I think of the transmigration of something similar to a soul, or what makes us us. A conscious, or whatever you want to call this metaphysical body.
It's amazing 'stuff' and A very good explanation, aHN, of something so elusive as to be nondescript. Thanks. I was coming to the same conclusion.
I don't think TJ realises but it's called 'being patronising'.
And I'm sure he would claim all innocence and tell us it is our perception, but if that's the way a person conveys themselves, through unskilful indifference, we call it what it is....
"The Buddhist principle of 'punarbhava' or re-becoming/rebirth [...] states that it is the vijnana (consciousness or mind) that carries kammic influence from rebirth to rebirth, for it is part of Samsara. The lack of a fixed, permanent 'self' (anatman) does not imply lack of continuity.
According to the Bhava Sutta (AN III.76) [a source! Thank you, Bodhipunk!] Buddha tells Ananda that 'Kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture for beings obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving to be established in a new realm of existence, either low (sense-sphere), middling (form-sphere) or high (formless sphere). Thus there is re-becoming in the future.' "
In sum, what carries over is kamma via the vehicle of consciousness or mind.
It just picks something to go to, and that's from what I've done that it goes to the next body or whatever? So, then are you saying there is no soul or consciousness? Then how does it know where to go, as if you would know....
Or do you?