Theravadin Teachings and Position about Rebirth

shanyin

Hello. When I decided to try Buddhist practice and to follow the teachings, I started with the eightfold path. I'm sure both schools don't deny the Buddha claimed the 8 fold path leads to enlightenment. Theravadin teachers seem to advise this as the path, I don't see what the path of the Mahayana Buddhists really is, and aparently they have a different idea of enlightenment. Anyways, I could go on but what I'm saying is if I am going to study Buddhism it will be Theravadin.

I have heard it said that Theravadins don't believe in rebirth. Perhaps 'believe' is the wrong word. I found this a little strange. Isn't nirvana nirvana because you end birth? You stop going in Samsara? Didn't the Buddha have many things to say about rebirth? Now that I started writing this I remember a youtube video of a Theravadin monk saying that people who meditated in past lives are likely to become peaceful very quickly when they start meditating.

Is the denial of rebirth by some Buddhists because of some sort of philisophical reason such as no-self or something?

federica

I am Theravadin, and I have not come across this aspect.

I am pretty sure Theravada teaches about re-birth...Just not about the transition period of the Bardo, or reincarnation.....

Read this discussion, to give you an idea....

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=94085

sukhita

....
Is the denial of rebirth by some Buddhists because of some sort of philisophical reason such as no-self or something?

It seems that the main reason for some Buddhists to reject literal rebirth is that there is no permanent, everlasting entity, like a Self. Therefore, rebirth is limited to moment to moment changes [in this lifetime] only.

[On the other hand] Ven Rahula Walpola (Theravadin teacher) asked: If we can understand that this life can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self, why can't we understand that the same forces can continue without a permanent, unchanging Self behind them after the non-functioning of the body? He taught that death is not a complete annihilation at the disintegration of the fleeting body. It is not the same "person" being reborn, it's just the continuation of the series, so to speak.

Anyway, this is something you must find out for yourself.

zenff

All therevada-people I met were convinced of rebirth, in line with the Pali scriptures and the traditions of their school.
Some of them pointed out that it is not a problem if students (westerners like me) do not embrace the idea of rebirth (yet).
Skillful actions count, regardless of our beliefs.

For most mahayana-people I met, things were basically the same by the way.
Many zen-people have vague notions similar to traditional Buddhist ideas.

My personal problems with the idea are not really connected to any tradition.
I was raised as a Christian and struggled to overcome my irrational beliefs with –what I thought of as - reason.
And this background makes it hard to give up what I think of as reason, for another irrational belief-system.

The phenomenon of rebirth is not a proven fact, in my opinion
The proof for it is merely anecdotal (like the evidence supporting alien abductions).
How this supposed phenomenon is supposed to work is pretty mysterious.
How the supposed mechanism relates to other causal relationships is completely dark.

thickpaper

Is the denial of rebirth by some Buddhists because of some sort of philisophical reason such as no-self or something?

I think there are philosophical, cultural, scriptural, reasons... amongst other reasons.

But the only reasons that should concern you are those you see for yourself:)

Jeffrey

If there is non-self then there isn't any lifetime either. So its not a matter of having only one lifetime as is the scientific materialist perspective we grow up with. 'Lifetime' is also non-self. It is a construct. Ego.

So the argument that there is no rebirth because there is only one life time is very funny misunderstanding.

The irony is that if you realized you had no being, lifetime, etc then you would be free from samsara and wouldn't have any prospect of being reborn. Nothing to defend. Nothing to lose. No attainment. And nothing holding you back. Here and now with no time.

DhammaDhatu

Isn't nirvana nirvana because you end birth?

Nirvana is the end of greed, hatred & delusion. The Theravada scriptures state:

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left?

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge.

However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

Itivuttaka: The Group of Twos

Theravada states the following about the teachings of the Buddha:

The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.

(Mn. i. 95)

So what 'rebirth' is regarded to be in conventional worldly language may not necessarily be what it actually is according to ultimate truth.

In brief, 'rebirth' means whatever you take it to mean.

Kind regards

We don't understand the Dhamma and so we don't understand these sankhāras; we take them to be ourselves, as belonging to us or belonging to others. This gives rise to clinging. When clinging arises, 'becoming' follows on. Once becoming arises, then there is birth. Once there is birth, then old age, sickness, death ... the whole mass of suffering arises.

When we get something we like we are glad over it. If there is no clinging to that gladness there is no birth; if there is clinging, this is called 'birth'. So if we get something, we aren't born (into gladness). If we lose, then we aren't born (into sorrow). This is the birthless and the deathless. Birth and death are both founded in clinging to and cherishing the sankhāras.

So the Buddha said. ''There is no more becoming for me, finished is the holy life, this is my last birth.'' There! He knew the birthless and the deathless. This is what the Buddha constantly exhorted his disciples to know. This is the right practice. If you don't reach it, if you don't reach the Middle Way, then you won't transcend suffering.

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Middle_Way_Within1.php