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Back Troubles

atappaatappa
edited January 2011 in Meditation
Hello. I've been having a problem when i meditate recently. I cannot keep my back straight for very long or I get this pain in my lower back. My doctor says I have a slightly curved spine and I think it's one of the reasons why. Can someone give me tips on how to maintain a good posture while meditating?

Comments

  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    I also have back problems, so I use a chair.
  • atappaatappa
    I've tried a chair as well. It's just that I cannot help my legs from shaking and other little distracting things. Sitting on the floor keeps me focused. I've tried to use a wall but i end up just falling asleep. But thanks shift+1. i should have been more specific and added more detail. :P
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    meditate with eyes either half-closed or opened, while laying down... remember that one can meditate in any possition (even walking!).
  • atappaatappa
    walking? I didnt know that! I guess I'm a meditation novice haha. I will look it up. Thanks Vincenzi.
  • VangelisVangelis
    Yes, walking meditation is of benefit but to attain the deep meditations it is important to be still. Typically at a meditation retreat, there is a mix of sitting and walking meditation.

    Have you tried different sitting postures? Have you been careful to keep your back straight? Sometimes you might just have to resign yourself to the fact that your back won't allow you to do sitting meditation.
  • buddhajunkiebuddhajunkie

    Have you tried experimenting with different cushion heights? The cushion height affects the natural curve of the back.

    Walking meditation is great. Definitely include some of that in your repertoire.

    http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/303.html



  • chariramacharirama Veteran
    edited January 2011
    Yoga really helps. From what I understand, one of the purposes of Yoga is to prepare the body for meditation.

    I have found great results with Iyenger Yoga and recommend you try and find a teacher in your area. There is a lot of emphasis on meditation posture and, in my case, my teacher has been able to help me correct the areas where I was having difficulty.

    http://www.bksiyengar.com
  • [DeletedUser][DeletedUser]
    Good posture of mind - relax and firm. If possible, be vegetarian. Perform exercise that it helpful and strengthen your spine while maintaining a good posture of mind through recitation of Om Mani Padme Hum or Namo Buddha Amitabha :cool:
  • atappaatappa
    I never use a cushion so that may be a problem. :) Thanks for the video and audio buddhajunkie. Unfortunately I'm very poor so I have no money for a teacher but I look up some poses online.
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    I agree that you should try walking meditation or different poses on your own. Of course a qualified teacher would be best, but in their absence study different meditation / mindfulness practices on your own.

    My new goal is to bring mindfulness to all activities, not just when I'm on the meditation cushion. Eating mindfully, bringing all awareness to the food and the process of eating it, has been very beneficial. It would be wonderful to extend this full awareness into every moment, but it takes time and practice.
  • chariramacharirama Veteran
    I never use a cushion so that may be a problem. :) Thanks for the video and audio buddhajunkie. Unfortunately I'm very poor so I have no money for a teacher but I look up some poses online.
    One of the things emphasized in my Yoga practice is to sit with the knees lower than the hips. For those of us unable to sit in the Full Lotus position, this means using some form of height to sit on. Usually this is a cushion but it can be anything as long as it does not cause more discomfort.
  • zenbikerzenbiker
    I have a back injury and also have trouble meditating in the traditional pose. I find a reclining chair works best for me -- I have a Zero Gravity chair to take the pressure off of the spine but I think any recliner would do.

    How long can you meditate before your back starts to become a problem? I find I can go about 15 minutes (even in my comfy chair), so I try to meditate for 10 minutes twice a day instead of trying for longer all at once.
  • SpockSpock
    I lie on my back. Yoga helps too!
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    I've found sitting in seiza (with a cushion or two under you) to be far more comfortable than sitting cross-legged or in a chair.
  • atappaatappa
    I've never tried seiza. I'm trying it now :)

    zenbiker. It takes about 3 minutes and then I experience discomfort.
  • buddhajunkiebuddhajunkie
    I never use a cushion so that may be a problem. :) Thanks for the video and audio buddhajunkie. Unfortunately I'm very poor so I have no money for a teacher but I look up some poses online.
    A cushion is hugely useful. I can see why your back would hurt without one.

    A good cushion should have sufficient height and not be too squishy.

    I recommend using one or two bath towels, folded into a small rectangle. It should also be folded such that it has a downward slope (in the direction you will be facing) so that there is no pronounced "edge" biting into your legs or putting pressure on your groin. Keep in mind that you are supposed to sit on the front half (or third) of a cushion, rather than right in the middle.

    The easiest "proper" pose is the Burmese position. However, I have recently switched to the Siddhasana.

    Also, it may help your shoulders (or maybe even back) if you put a pillow on your lap and rest your hands there, since it will act as an arm rest.

    Experiment with cushion heights til you find a tolerable pose.


    Even if some pain comes after, say 10 or 20 minutes of sitting, one good idea is to do walking meditation for 10-20 minutes, then immediately do sitting meditation. You will be amazed at how concentrated you can get doing walking meditation, and it carries over into your sitting session.

    I find I can go about 15 minutes (even in my comfy chair), so I try to meditate for 10 minutes twice a day instead of trying for longer all at once.
    For most people, this means that you won't be able to go as "deep" as you can in a longer session. In my experience this is usually the case.

    I recommend finding a way to meditate for 20 minutes (or more) in one sitting, at least some of the time.

    Just make sure your zero-gravity chair doesn't lull you to sleep.

  • RogerRoger
    edited January 2011
    Lower back pain? Tylenol for pain, Ibuprofen for swelling (that's why it hurts) and STRETCHING to de-cramp (mini-cramps) injured muscles so they can heal. Cramped/injured muscles can't get enough blood to heal; that's why back pain is often chronic. OK to take Ibuprofen and acetaminophen together. They cramp and hurt bad and naggingly to warn you to take it easy. Otherwise you _might_ injure spinal cord. IOW, its an evolutionary thing: serious pain warning to make you STOP overworking those muscles.

    Seriously. A week of Ibuprofen (I. only works when you are on it for several days), Tylenol as needed, lower-back stretching for five minutes two or three times a day for a week or, better, forever! :D . Guaranteed relief (unless there's something very wrong).

    Good luck!
  • dwitiyadwitiya
    edited January 2011
    You should try a higher cushion to sit on, and smaller cushions, to place beneath your knees, as your back may be strained, if you do not support your knees. Alternately, use a large comforter, and fold and tuck, where needed, to support your seat area and knees.

    Back exercises are great too.
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited January 2011
    Isn't it interesting that we can sit on a sofa and watch TV for such long periods without any pain or cramp, but we are reluctant to try this same posture for meditation? Just a thought..... ;)
  • atappaatappa
    Isn't it interesting that we can sit on a sofa and watch TV for such long periods without any pain or cramp, but we are reluctant to try this same posture for meditation? Just a thought..... ;)
    great thought. I was listening to this talk and it was comparing meditation to trying to swim upstream in a river. If we "go with the flow" there is no struggle. But, if we turn around and swim upstream, we tire easily. Our body & mind resist just like in meditation. We have all these thoughts pouring in, almost if the mind is rebelling. haha This is from the tapes of Stephen Batchlor's Buddhism Without Beliefs. :)

  • buddhajunkiebuddhajunkie
    Isn't it interesting that we can sit on a sofa and watch TV for such long periods without any pain or cramp, but we are reluctant to try this same posture for meditation? Just a thought..... ;)
    Not a fair comparison.

    1. People are usually lean completely into the sofa when watching TV. In typical meditation, usually the back is totally unsupported and kept straight.

    2. People are usually very still when they meditate, thus keeping pressure on the exact same muscles and bones for an extended period. Whereas in non-meditation, people frequently adjust their posture, stretch, cross and uncross, fidget, get up, etc. This helps distribute or relieve the tensions and pressures.

    3. In meditation, you will probably notice aches and pains more than if you are fully distracted by tv, video games, etc.

    great thought. I was listening to this talk and it was comparing meditation to trying to swim upstream in a river. If we "go with the flow" there is no struggle. But, if we turn around and swim upstream, we tire easily.
    I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the metaphor.

    Most people grasp, avert and struggle. An enlightened one does no such thing.

    Don't read too much into the metaphor.
  • atappaatappa
    But in order to become enlightened, one must work hard towards it. Maybe enlightenment can be compared to reaching the bank of the river. :)
  • karmadorjekarmadorje

    I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the metaphor.

    Most people grasp, avert and struggle. An enlightened one does no such thing.

    Don't read too much into the metaphor.
    Enlightened ones don't need to sit still and meditate. For ordinary practitioners, I think the comparison is useful. We get distracted by our minor aches and pains when meditating because we get bored and have nothing else to think about. When watching a show that engrosses us, we lose track of our body for a time.

    While we need to do what we can with cushions and sitting positions, the real key is not to be averse to a little discomfort. If it is really earth-shakingly bad pain, then we should move a little to a different position for a time. It isn't the pain of the sitting that is the bad thing, it is the waves of thought about how we wish the pain would stop, how much longer should we stay sitting, what is the point of this, this sucks, etc. Pain is just a sensation, it takes thoughts to have real suffering.
  • atappaatappa

    It isn't the pain of the sitting that is the bad thing, it is the waves of thought about how we wish the pain would stop, how much longer should we stay sitting, what is the point of this, this sucks, etc. Pain is just a sensation, it takes thoughts to have real suffering.

    .
    This is definitely true.
  • buddhajunkiebuddhajunkie
    But in order to become enlightened, one must work hard towards it. Maybe enlightenment can be compared to reaching the bank of the river. :)
    Yes, but I didn't like the words "struggle" and "tired" used to describe the act and result of meditation. "Struggle" suggests a brute-force approach, which I think is usually reserved for last resort. "Tired" suggests feeling worn out after meditation.

    I think those words describe a "bad" meditation session, perhaps, but not a typical one, at least not for an experienced meditator.


    Speaking of river analogies, here's one used in a different context: The usefulness of a meditation object, such as the breath, has been likened driving a stick straight down into a calm river to see how fast it is moving.
  • atappaatappa
    Haha interesting. I've been doing some walking meditation. I think it is much easier for a beginning meditator and for me. I really felt aware that I was walking. The feel of the feet, the lifting sensation of the feet. Wonderful practice. :)
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited January 2011
    Isn't it interesting that we can sit on a sofa and watch TV for such long periods without any pain or cramp, but we are reluctant to try this same posture for meditation? Just a thought..... ;)
    Not a fair comparison.

    1. People are usually lean completely into the sofa when watching TV. In typical meditation, usually the back is totally unsupported and kept straight.

    2. People are usually very still when they meditate, thus keeping pressure on the exact same muscles and bones for an extended period. Whereas in non-meditation, people frequently adjust their posture, stretch, cross and uncross, fidget, get up, etc. This helps distribute or relieve the tensions and pressures.

    3. In meditation, you will probably notice aches and pains more than if you are fully distracted by tv, video games, etc.
    First off, don't forget that this is a "BACK TROUBLES" thread.

    1. Yes, I agree that keeping the back 'upright' (not straight, because the spine has a natural curve) is the typical meditation posture. But the Buddha also recommended lying down meditation, for example the "lion's pose", in his discourses on meditation. Here, the back is indeed supported. The thing to watch out for is to be fully aware and not fall asleep.

    2. Not so still in walking meditation. ;)

    3. In meditation, you will not usually notice aches and pains if you are properly focussed on the meditation object (right concentration and mindfulness). It's just like reclining on a sofa and being fully absorbed in the TV program. :)

    Don't pay too much attention to what I have said above, just chatting..... :)

    My data bundle is almost expired, see you all as soon as I buy some more airtime.
  • atappaatappa
    It's getting better. Stretching and OTC pain meds help. I just have to work, work, work. Being Buddhist is not for wimps! haha :)
  • TandaTanda Explorer
    In my 10 day Vipassana meditation course I developed back pain on the 5th day. When I complained to my teacher he remarked, "It is good that you have pain. You must watch it" Later The daily discourse narrated a way of observing pain. On 8 Th day, believe me,it worked! For a certain duration on that days evening mediation the suffering really disappeared. Though it returned the next day and I was not successful in 'observing' the pain,
  • IronRabbitIronRabbit Veteran
    edited January 2011
    Although this is little help while on the cushion - while off the cushion this is the best investment I ever made - vis a vis "back problems" - the inversion table.

    image

    Gives new meaning to "I'm going down to the garage to hang myself."
  • atappaatappa
    Although this is little help while on the cushion - while off the cushion this is the best investment I ever made - vis a vis "back problems" - the inversion table.

    image

    Gives new meaning to "I'm going down to the garage to hang myself."
    hahahaha very nice. :p
  • Ada_BAda_B
    I've always had a scoliosis (bend) in my spine that was painless until recently. Now I have to be very careful as my spine is weak and is easily strained, so I meditate in a straight chair, often with my feet on a footstool. It took a while to get used to it and I miss my seiza bench, but that is a minor issue. You can get used to anything with practice.

    But assuming you don't have an permanent back problem, it is useful to know that you don't have to stay completely still in meditation. You can do a walking meditation, but if you are in discomfort, again with practice, you can learn to adjust your seating position without breaking your flow in meditation.

    I found it very liberating to realise the the aim of meditation was not to try to see how long you could sit without moving, like an extended game of musical statues.

    There's a lady in my sangha with rheumatoid arthritis who cannot sit for more than a few minutes. I learned from her as I saw her stand up from her chair, stretch and settle back down again, the whole time remaining focussed on her meditation. She said it took many years to learn but it at least showed me it could be done!
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited January 2011
    @Ada_B : Excellent posting, there's a few ideas there that I could try for myself as I experience back/shoulder pain and sometimes an unbearable ache in the knees.
  • revkusalarevkusala
    edited January 2011
    So many good comments. The body can be conditioned, as well as the mind, for better or worse! Sometimes, we romanticize our practice, or mentality of practice, what is important that we develop skill. not everyone is of the same physical capacity. one should not equate endurance as success in meditation necessarily. With respect to the original question, if you are otherwise fit, try getting help from a bodywork therapist or chiropractor. Don't regard your practice as wrong or inadequate simply on the basis of not being able to maintain a posture.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2011
    I find it nearly impossible to sit without a cushion but quite easy to sit with a cushion. Also, If you have spine curve issues, yoga is very beneficial for the spine. I had a yoga teacher once who used to have very severe scoliosis. All the "doctors" said there was only so much they could do and he would most likely end up in a wheelchair. He cured himself and proved all the "doctors" wrong by practicing yoga. His spine is near perfect straight now.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    At 64 I'm fortunate that I can still sit comfortably in the Burmese position.

    Recently I purchased an inflatable, moon-shaped cushion for travel. But I like it so much that it has become my one and only cushion.

    I have no financial or other interest in this company. just bringing it to the member's attention: http://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Meditator-Inflatable-Meditation-Cushion/dp/B002C41VSW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1295887038&sr=8-1

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415MdGduulL._AA300_.jpg
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