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Buddhism, dogma's and reincarnation
Greetings,
I've always been someone that doesn't accept dogmas, Buddhism has always been very appealing to me because there aren't (m)any dogmas in the teachings. However one point I've always found a bit dogmatic is the idea of reincarnation. I'm rather "agnostic" to the notion of returning as anything after I die. Now I'm reading the novel "Siddartha" by Hermann Hesse, in which Siddartha (not Siddartha Gotama) has a moment where he is planning to drown himself because he wants to end the suffering he inflicted upon himself. But at that moment he hears an "Om" and sees everything clearly, instead the old suffering Siddartha dies and he is now "Self-awakened". In this aspect he is still alive yet reincarnated.
Should I see reincarnation like this? How do you see reincarnation and how do you respond to dogmas?
I've always been someone that doesn't accept dogmas, Buddhism has always been very appealing to me because there aren't (m)any dogmas in the teachings. However one point I've always found a bit dogmatic is the idea of reincarnation. I'm rather "agnostic" to the notion of returning as anything after I die. Now I'm reading the novel "Siddartha" by Hermann Hesse, in which Siddartha (not Siddartha Gotama) has a moment where he is planning to drown himself because he wants to end the suffering he inflicted upon himself. But at that moment he hears an "Om" and sees everything clearly, instead the old suffering Siddartha dies and he is now "Self-awakened". In this aspect he is still alive yet reincarnated.
Should I see reincarnation like this? How do you see reincarnation and how do you respond to dogmas?
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Comments
The answer is, there's no creed that insists people believe in literal reincarnation. Many Buddhist do believe, and that's OK. Many Buddhists, especially in the West, don't. Talk of reincarnation is in the old Sutras, after all. But, for Buddhists, the concept that actually needs to be understood is rebirth. This is part of the second scene you describe.
Time and again I read people asserting that the Noble Truths are self-evident. Are they?
Regarding dogmas, I never felt Buddhism was dogmatic in the sense that "you must believe this or else...". But there are some teachings which may be difficult to accept (like rebirth). Personally I try to keep an open mind, see how it fits with the rest of the teachings and how it affects my practice. There is no proof whether rebirth happens or not (though there's been some compelling research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson). I think believing in one life is as much a "dogma" as rebirth. But I simply don't know, and I don't see the issue as essential to the practice.
P.
I'll definately check out the link you suggested tho, Vangelis, but every now and then I prefer to read a novel instead of teachings.
Cinorjer, how do the people that believe in it, believe in it? It seems to me that reincarnation is used for people to live a good and honest life and that's the reward, kind of like heaven for christians. But in my opinion to live a good and honest life is something that's a reward in itself, isn't it? Why do people need that "reward"?
Simonthepilgrim, I think the fact that people are suffering less by following the eigthfold path makes it so that it is believable that there's a way out of dukkha. This to me seems more a "see for yourself, then believe" thing than a "believe and act accordingly and then you'll never find out" thing.
Either way, my view about the issue is the same as you sattvapaul, I'm rather agnostic in all these things.
The same goes for drugs for that matter, was it not Karl Marx that said religion is the opium of the people.
Right View
Right Intent
Right Livelihood
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration
In what way POSSIBLE could adhering to such noble and encompassing virtues lead a person to greater suffering? I can understand doubt or apprehension toward the validity rebirth, as only personal insight and wisdom can illuminate the nature of such a process, and doubt leads to analysis, leads to wisdom and understanding. But to doubt the virtues and effects of living a life led by the 8-fold path, is to doubt the human potential for change, liberation, self-realization, happiness, and enlightenment. No wise person could ever doubt the virtues of such a path.
And a person still faced a struggle for liberation, with failure the most likely outcome. Think of reincarnation as an unending series of tests, and one failure takes you back to where you started. On top of that, each failing grade remains on your record and is factored into your future lives. Given this, the ultimate goal is to free oneself from the wheel of reincarnation entirely. To graduate. That was the reward.
Against this backdrop, Buddhism substituted the concept of rebirth. We are, in a real sense, being constantly reborn minute by minute. Birth, life, and death are all part of this constant change. Instead of concentrating on the death part of existence like other religions, we focus on the life part, and see little distinction between birth and death and the life between. So where do you go to after death? The same place you came from before you were born. It doesn't matter what you believe, in Heavens or Hells or Reincarnation or Nothing, all anyone can change is their actions right now. In Buddhism, eliminating suffering in this life is our focus, its own reward.
Hope this helps.
The new concept of rebirth however I can find myself in completely. However this does seem a bit like how even the catholic church is saying "don't take the bible too literally" just so they can keep having followers or keep them from looking bad for believing. I hope I don't seem too criticizing, it's not my intention to criticize but to understand.
Simple put: reincarnation means "I" will be reborn. Explanation-wise, we expect more than that (darn that ego!
What da heck does that mean? What is "I?" What does the small print in the contract say about the nature and composition of _I_?
Nobody knows the small print. It's beyond our ability to comprehend, because, of course the universe and beyond is so incredibly HUGE how can we expect to comprehend the fine print?
I think it's enough to say some kind of continuity exists over time having to do with the current existence of this "I" we all individually perceive.
Want that continuity to be a positive experience? Want that continuity to be one with more understanding and less suffering? Well then.., the Law of Karma might be a good one to stick on your refrigerator.
Oh, practice meditation, the answer to this question of R, the "fine print" if you will, might become clearer. That's just a ____guess_____ I'm making based something I heard from a guy who heard it from a guy who read something.
Zen Master: I don't know I haven't died yet. It's dinner time, where are the potatoes?
Our minds insist on making sense of the world. When a parent looks at the miracle of a new baby, we know where the physical body came from, but for most of our history, we had no idea of genetics or cell division or how that baby began to form. So, our mind's imagination filled in the blanks. So where did the person in that body come from? And when the baby grows up and develops a unique personality, where did that come from? Our minds fill in the blanks. Reincarnation is one possible answer. A person's ability to believe what seems to make sense does the rest.
The metaphysical and mystical elements are there, since it is an ancient religion, but Buddhism also makes a statement about the human experience and how to find purpose to our lives that is unique. As suggested, focus first on the Noble Truths and see if that makes sense to you. From there, it's up to you.
Hi all,
I recommend that you take a few moments to read "Anatta and Rebirth " by Ajahn Buddhadasa for an excellent teaching about these matters.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books7/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_Anatta_and_Rebirth.pdf
with kind wishes,
D.
An afterlife itself isn't a dogmatic idea. Nor is a singular life. It is when these ideas are attached to or pushed as essential, true or obvious that they become dogmatic. Skeptics and athiests are often just as dogmatic as those who believe in an afterlife.
Why care how others see rebirth?
I guess the only time we should care is when views are pushed, dogma.
A method you may use with any question of dharma, rebirth, sex, drugs, rock and roll, is to see if it fits. Start with the three marks, move through the four noble truths and the eightfold path and then into your pure experience, unfettered by anything external. If all along it belongs, then I would imagine it is dharma. This to me is the essence of the dharmic method of enquiry.
namaste
The Buddha taught believing in reincarnation is not a factor of the path to liberation.
The Buddha taught reincarnation belief promotes morality or harmlessness.
Therefore, if you are not inclined towards reincarnation belief, then simply drop it (rather than wasting time distracting oneself).
Kind regards
"Monks, you would do well to depend on a view-dependency (ditthi-nissaya), depending on which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair. But do you see a view-dependency, depending on which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair?"
"No, lord."
"Very good, monks. I, too, do not envision a view-dependency, depending on which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair.
"Monks, where there is a self, would there be [the thought,] 'belonging to my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Or, monks, where there is what belongs to self, would there be [the thought,] 'my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?"
"What else could it be, lord? It's utterly & completely a fool's teaching."
Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile