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What is your personal stance on sex?
Can you live without it?
Lately I'm truly becoming more and more confident in the validity of going through life without romantic relationships. I always like the idea of having a partner to share experiences with, but I find that friends CAN be enough. It's all a matter of being surrounded by people that understand you and like some of the same things you do.
That being said, I crave sex - a lot sometimes. I always associated sex with love but sometimes I wonder how much good that is doing for me. I want sex, but not a relationship. I'm not the kind of guy to want one night stands. So how can I solve my problem? I have a very healthy libido, but even before I found about buddhism I realized the karmic consequences of sex, so that's why I decided to only do it in a committed romantic relationship. But I don't want a romantic relationship right now. What advice would you have for me?
What about yourself, how do you view sex? Do you have it? Do you think it's a need that should be satisfied? Are you in a relationship? Do you actively search sexual experiences? If you weren't in a relationship, what would you do?
Lately I'm truly becoming more and more confident in the validity of going through life without romantic relationships. I always like the idea of having a partner to share experiences with, but I find that friends CAN be enough. It's all a matter of being surrounded by people that understand you and like some of the same things you do.
That being said, I crave sex - a lot sometimes. I always associated sex with love but sometimes I wonder how much good that is doing for me. I want sex, but not a relationship. I'm not the kind of guy to want one night stands. So how can I solve my problem? I have a very healthy libido, but even before I found about buddhism I realized the karmic consequences of sex, so that's why I decided to only do it in a committed romantic relationship. But I don't want a romantic relationship right now. What advice would you have for me?
What about yourself, how do you view sex? Do you have it? Do you think it's a need that should be satisfied? Are you in a relationship? Do you actively search sexual experiences? If you weren't in a relationship, what would you do?
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Comments
Would the world be better off if there was no such thing as sex(es)? Think about that!! lol (cmon! no.)
There's probably girls out there who want what you do. I'll say that. I had a relationship that was like that, and after we broke up that's what it exclusively became.
I think sex can be one of the most amazing experiences ever. My view is it's not a need but it should be satisfied :P!.
I havn't had it alot but I want to. I talked about it to my friend and he said I'm probably just looking in the wrong places, maybe that's what your doing :P.
Karmic consequences of sex you say... OK, maybe it can make you suffer. Think about what you can do to minimize that suffering, we're not monks :P.
Just my thoughts I'll keep an eye on this thread lol.
As for myself, I view sex as a perfectly natural and health thing, and I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. I also don't see anything wrong with celibacy, which I think is also perfectly natural and can be beneficial in the right context. In fact, if I wasn't in a relationship right now, I'd most likely seek ordination. My feelings and commitment are one of the few things keeping me attached to worldly life.
In your case, I'm not sure what I can say in the way of advice besides try finding a "friend with benefits." That way, you can have sex in the context of a type of relationship that's not quite a relationship. Either that or find someone you really care about and want to have a committed relationship with.
as for those questions..
yes i can live without it, although it's part of your makeup a large part is also psychological.. so the sexual tension can just be seen as sexual tension and it can go away by itself unless you of course keep fueling it.. sex isn't a problem and neither is no sex .. just two different experiences.
i do have sex since i'm in a relationship, i don't think it's a need. it's just a cool experience to have whenever both of us are in the mood.. i don't actively search for them, if i wasn't in a relationship and not having sex i'd still be content and if i came across another girl who wanted to have sex with me that would be cool too.
sex is a natural part of life, however there can be suffering around it. not because the sex itself is bad, but because you're holding onto it in your mind (more often than not as a pleasurable experience you really really like and must have) which is just not intelligent because you can't always get what you want when you want it..
here's a good video on holding onto your likes and dislikes:
Maybe my idea of sex as a very intimate experience is wrong...I don't know.
If we are ALL stuck in the muck, how do you expect to save another?
Well, first you must extricate yourself from the muck, get to standing on solid ground. Then you can get your hands dirty. Or your pecker.
Also, if lust is a problem, I recommend viewing whomever you find attractive from the inside out: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'
When you can see all beings in this light there is no lust.
A: Oh, its wonderful. Of course, the only kind of sexual things I do/would do would be with my girlfriend/wife. I wouldn't do it with a stranger. Do I think sex should be loved based? Not exactly. But I see no problem with it in general really, I just would prefer to do it with someone I love.
I am not sure how much I believe, but it definitely an interesting read at 80 sum pages.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16267603/The-Terra-Papers-by-Robert-Morning-Sky
if you have realized the karmic consequences of sex then abide by that realisation. stay committed to it. allow it to bear fruit. allow the old habits to settle & go
then your mind may develop a fresh perspective & more clarity of mind (even if you are to return to relationship)
one must give the mind opportunity to settle, so clarity can come to fruition
kind regards
Just saying...
There simply is no parallel to saying that a baby is born a sinner. There is never any sense in the buddhist teaching that beings are getting what they deserve, that they are being justly punished. The exact opposite is said: One should feel sorrow for those that commit harm against others because of the suffering they will inexorably undergo as a result of their actions. One should feel heartbreak that beings undergo suffering with no understanding of what caused it or how to prevent it from recurring.
BTW, could you provide some key quotes for us, from those sutras? Or some links?
So all that is left is the solitary Cūlakammavibhanga Sutta.
I have heard the Cūlakammavibhanga Sutta does not exist in the Chinese equivalent of the Majjhima Nikaya. Considering the vast Brahministic adulteration found in the Theravada Commentaries, particularly by the ex-Brahmin Buddhaghosa, who dedicated his works to his rebirth in a Brahma heaven, the Cūlakammavibhanga Sutta was possibly 'slipped in' to the suttas.
Further, many many of the Buddha's suttas rebutt the Cūlakammavibhanga Sutta, such as AN 3.61 Tittha Sutta.
So we are left with one solitary sutta reportedly spoken to a Brahmin child. It certainly cannot be regarded as the core teachings let alone "Buddhist".
Further, what is stated in the Cūlakammavibhanga Sutta is not true. It is completely false according to reality. It is wrong. It is a lie.
If we wish to follow words we read in a book like a dumb unreflective animal we are free to do so.
Dakini, according to reality & truth, said: "Many prostitutes end up in the business because of abuse in childhood and/or adolescence (not counting those sold into sexual slavery)".
Prostitution is generally caused by the actions & cravings of men. If we study prostitution in Thailand, we will find how immoral cruel heartless men procure village girls from their naive or immoral families.
All the best
I appreciate these textual debates--very informative. I try not to pass judgment, but just watch the debates evolve, and learn, and work on making up my own mind, or revising my opinion, or whatever. Testing the teachings in my mind.
If we are to help stop the exploitation & abuse found in much of prostitution, we must discern the here & now causes.
Its ridiculous to say it was caused by something in a past life. We don't really know anything about past or future lives anyway, its just all speculation.
Better to practice Dhamma in this life, focus on the here and now and let go of all the papanca...
(Karmadorje)"There simply is no parallel to saying that a baby is born a sinner. There is never any sense in the buddhist teaching that beings are getting what they deserve, that they are being justly punished. The exact opposite is said: One should feel sorrow for those that commit harm against others because of the suffering they will inexorably undergo as a result of their actions. One should feel heartbreak that beings undergo suffering with no understanding of what caused it or how to prevent it from recurring."
I don't understand how the idea that "beings undergo suffering with no understanding of what caused it" jibes with the some of the quotes you've provided (or with the Lamrim), that seem to indicate that past life actions are responsible for current suffering. I don't mean to needle, you--I'm trying to get my mind around all this.
(We've now officially hijacked the thread.)
The Mahākammavibhanga & Kukkuravatika Sutta you are quoting do not state prostitutes are such due to their past karma.
The suttas merely state there are results of actions.
Further, the Mahākammavibhanga Sutta does not expound a definite result of actions. It states:
1. good results can come from good actions
2. bad results can come from bad actions
3. good results can come from bad actions and
4. bad results can come from good actions.
Also, the suttas are in spiritual language.
For example, when a person engages in sexual intercourse, with the associated excitement & lust, their body is a certain way. When sexual intercourse ends and they cannot get anymore sexual intercourse, that sexually aroused body 'dies'.
The person is left with the results of their actions, which is longing for sex, unhappiness, despair, hell.
You are taking the words "on the dissolution of the body, after death" literally or in worldly language.
The Tripitaka clearly states there is two kinds of truth: (1) how things really are and (2) how unenlightened worldly people (putthujana) think the truth to be.
Such suttas are for unenlightened people (putthujana) to maintain their personal morality. Such suttas are to stop people like you having sex with prostitutues.
But they are not for discussions of truth or say for people who must make decisions for a society. The Buddha clearly said the kinds of ideas you are entertaining result in inaction.
For you, inaction is good. We do not want you visiting prostitutes or watching pornography now, do we?
But for those who must take action & help prostitutes, your ideas & such suttas are useless.
That girls are tricked & forced into prostitution is not due to past karma. It is due to observable causes in the here & now.
You must be careful your ignorance, apathy or inaction in respect prostitution does not result in your rebirth in hell or, worse, into the animal kingdom.
The intent is clarified in SN 36.21 Sivaka Sutta, where one can see that he is saying that events are not exhaustively determined by past actions while not denying that past actions are one element of the makeup of a cognitive moment: Given that your opinion is at variance with Lord Shakyamuni, perhaps you can walk us through the argument by which you dismiss his reasoning? The notion that 20+ centuries of buddhist philosophy by the brightest minds of India, Tibet, China and Japan are the sycophantic musings of unreflective animals is clearly risible.
@ karma :: karma is a one concept dharma. in what context beings are reborn is because of karma... if suffering is caused, that is including the karma of others. it is not that simple, but it is that simple... karma, is a one word dharma. if you have many "karmic debts", you can pay them as "you wish" but they are there.
The Buddha has stated, without ambiguity, that the whole mass of Dependent Origination arises: "When the eye sees the form, when the ear hears a sound, etc".
Bile, phlegm, wind, a combination,
Season, uneven, harsh treatment,
and through the result of kamma as the eighth.
If it was applied to prostitutes, their pain is due to harsh treatment.
As for "the result of kamma", this does not infer a past life.
For example, my mind thinks about a past experience. This causes pleasure to arise. Or it causes pain to arise.
This does not infer a past life.
Samañaphala Sutra: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
from :: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html
§ Recollection of Past Lives (verbatim)
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. Just as if a man were to go from his home village to another village, and then from that village to yet another village, and then from that village back to his home village. The thought would occur to him, 'I went from my home village to that village over there. There I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I went to that village over there, and there I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I came back home.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. He recollects his manifold past lives... in their modes and details.
"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.
the Pali term is "past dwellings", literally, "past homes"
the Buddha advised unambiguously in the Khajjaniya Sutta that when contemplating one's past dwellings ((such as when one was naughty at school), one is merely recollecting the five aggregates; that one is merely recollecting emptiness
the Samañaphala Sutra was spoken to a King, who killed his father
the Khajjaniya Sutta was spoken to monks, in higher training
there is a difference between when the Buddha addressed putthujanas and those in higher training
in the the Khajjaniya Sutta, about one's "past dwellings" (such as when one was naughty at school): But now, Vincenzi & Karmadorje are not one who tears down and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who discards and does not pull in; who scatters and does not pile up.
To the contrary, now, Vincenzi & Karmadorje build up, cling, pull in and pile up.
And what do they build up, cling, pull in and pile up?
Becoming, craving for existence, self, rebirth.
:coffee:
The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.
Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.
Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.
(Mn. i. 95)
Appamatto ubho atthe adhiganhati pandito,
Ditthe dhamma ca yo attho, yo ca'ttho saparayiko.
Atthabhisamayadhiro pan d ito ti pavuccati.
The wise and heedful person is familiar with both modes of speaking: the meaning seen by ordinary people and the meaning which they can't understand. One who is fluent in the various modes of speaking is a wise person.
There is no evidence whatsoever the Buddha spoke the Cūlakammavibhanga Sutta.
Further, your view about "the brightest minds" is more unverified speculation.
However, what is reported in the Khajjaniya Sutta can be verified by each of us.
I assume with a name such as Karmadorje, you follow a faith & devotion tradition rather than a practice tradition.
I assume with a name such as Karmadorje, you are not schooled in the basics of Dhamma.
An anagami is a non-returner. An anagami is free from sensual desire.
I assume Vincenzi intends to refer to sakadāgāmī.
Sakadāgāmī or once-returners are not interested in sex either.
Just because sensual desire can still arise in the mind of a sakadāgāmī does not mean a sakadāgāmī is interested in sex.
A sakadāgāmī is interested in jhana or absorption. Jhana is the heavenly bliss that arises when the mind is free from sensuality.
Kind regards
In Dependent Origination, 'aging&death' refers to change.
In the Dependent Origination, the Buddha used the words 'aging&death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair & the whole mass of suffering' to describe the last link.
How can sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair occur in a dead body?