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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
ZG, excruciating menstrual pain can be a symptom of thyroid disease.
Where do you live, that people verbally assault you all the time for being veggie? Just say it's a health issue. You don't have to justify yourself. If they're obnoxious, tell them they're being rude. You shouldn't have to live like that.
michigan, lol. i grew up in a very small town in the country. vegetarianism is slightly odd to them. i've also received this frequently in the break room at my old job.
all of the women in my family are plagued with horrible menstruation cramps until they have kids, so i guess i never really thought about it too much. my gyno has just suggested i could be put on birth control, but it is not a possibility that i would become pregnant so i don't wish to do that. and like i said, i used to have them when i was younger but a veg diet makes these sort of periods quite rare for me. i would think if it was a result of a thyroid problem it would stay the same. i'm kind of a hypochondriac so i did research the thyroid thing and atm, i do think i have several of the symptoms (which may or may not be me just being a hypochondriac), but i will probably suggest this to my doctor at my next visit and see what he thinks. thanks for your input!
Zombiegirl, if you're able to control those painful symptoms with diet, more power to you. Most doctors are out to lunch when it comes to thyroid, anyway (I would know; I've had thyroid disease all my life, only got diagnosed a few years ago, in spite of my going to doctors for testing all my adult life.) But if you have several of the symptoms on the list, no harm in checking it out. Ask them to include a test for thyroid antibodies if they order a bloodtest. If they say you don't need that, insist anyway.
I eat meat in moderation, and when I do, its usually Chicken or Turkey. Red meat bothers me. I may be changing the topic, but I watched this show on the Discovery Channel several years ago about brain parasites and how you can get them from undercooked meat. Ever since, i've been terrified. I like my brain with no wormies, Thank you.
ZG, excruciating menstrual pain can be a symptom of thyroid disease.
Where do you live, that people verbally assault you all the time for being veggie? Just say it's a health issue. You don't have to justify yourself. If they're obnoxious, tell them they're being rude. You shouldn't have to live like that.
michigan, lol. i grew up in a very small town in the country. vegetarianism is slightly odd to them. i've also received this frequently in the break room at my old job.
all of the women in my family are plagued with horrible menstruation cramps until they have kids, so i guess i never really thought about it too much. my gyno has just suggested i could be put on birth control, but it is not a possibility that i would become pregnant so i don't wish to do that. and like i said, i used to have them when i was younger but a veg diet makes these sort of periods quite rare for me. i would think if it was a result of a thyroid problem it would stay the same. i'm kind of a hypochondriac so i did research the thyroid thing and atm, i do think i have several of the symptoms (which may or may not be me just being a hypochondriac), but i will probably suggest this to my doctor at my next visit and see what he thinks. thanks for your input!
I'm from Michigan too!!! Well, now I live in florida, but originally michigan.
what a people,, dont even know what to eat eat flys if you have to i kill for meat in this noth in nunavut,,and not ashame of this too,,soon people will be thin like stick waiting to be burn..it not wrong to eat meat or kill it to eat..if you guys eat meat and saying its ok to eat it and at the same time you guys are about killing animals to eat... jerks
Nothing like a blast of reality to put some perspective on it, eh? Does that wrap it up?
Who, me? Or all of us? Hi, cur, thanks for joining us. I eat what my body needs to stay healthy; for the last 15 years or so, that's been high-protein foods--meat, fish, fowl, dairy foods, whatever works. I think people should do whatever they need to do, and not worry about it, and certainly not preach about whether it's good or bad.
the buddha taught that killing and eating animals causes suffering both for the animals the butchers and the person who eats them, two people eating half as much meat is as good as one person being completely meat free. the ideal is to eat no meat but if your health or greed/desire forces you to eat meat try to cut back on the amount, this will cause less suffering, and if your going to eat meat stick to less enlightened animals like chicken and small fish, the penalty for killing a cow in the buddhas india was almost death, they couldnt even consider it, a lot of really cocky "buddhists" go around making unfactual statements about the buddha eating meat, and all the monks, asians eat tiny amounts of meat if they eat any at all by american standards, in my opinion vegetarianism is central to the buddhas ideal he set for himself, he also said no lieing, how many of you pull that one off, at least for now the elimination of meat eating seems an absurd fantasy, but i heartfully believe thats what the buddha would hope for.................
May I know where Buddha explicitly said not to eat meat?
As far as I know according to the Pali Canon Buddha explicitly refuted Devadatta's insistence that all those who followed the Buddha to go vegetarian. Simply because it would not be practical, especially for those monks who still go on alms rounds for their daily meal. What if someone decided to offer meat? If you throw it away then it would be a downfall. As a former monk sure you know this.
May I enquire why you returned your monk's vow, if I may be so daring?
Personally my way of eating meat resembles that of zombiegirl, although i was never a vegetarian and i do buy meat occasionally. If someone cooks dinner and invites me i will eat it, even if it is meat. When im shopping for myself, i only buy meat if i really feel like eating it, kind of like buying a delicacy. I try not to buy meat just because i don't know what else to cook though. In that case i'll rather look up some vegetarian recipe on the internet.
This probably depends on the person, if you think its morally questionable to eat meat than you probably shouldn't.
I probably would be a vegetarian if i was brought up that way - my knowledge of vegetarian cooking is still limited and therefore i don't know if i'd eat enough of vitamins and such if i only cut meat out of my diet.
I also don't think its any more moral to just buy meat but not kill animals, since the butcher could have the same reasons - he's a vegetarian, but doesn't want to loose his job since he doesn't know how else he'll pay his rent next month..
Besides, take another example - most people agree that killing jews or putting them in concentration camps is not ethical; but what if you only payed someone to regularily supply you with bones of jews that you knew he killed?
True, we need to kill living beings to survive, be it plants or animals. But i don't think that just pretending that we are not taking their lives because they are such or our belief is such that it makes any different. Therefore i also find intention very important. I don't think we should stop eating now (since that is not really a sensible option), but we should make very sure that we do not waste our food (that is, not throw it away or let it go bad), regardelss of its kind.
dorje, ive read over a hundred books of scripture, the buddha and buddhism, however that was long ago, the stuff i remember really well i learned from years of going to temple and asking tons of questions, in the history books tibet was practically a vegetarian country, only the muslims were willing to kill animals it was strictly forbidden to buddhists, over time the "devil" crept in with the idea its ok to eat flesh as long as buddhists dont do the killing, for 1000 yrs the muslims have been the butchers, i remember clearly there is a scriptural encouragement by the buddha to be vegetarian, not a total ban on meat eating, in the buddhist circles i have been in, tibetan and southeast asian, usually its the holiest leaders that are revered for there complete vegetarianism, when i went to meet Sakya Dhezhung Zrinpoche in LA in the early 80s from what i had read in books i expected the monks to be vegetarian and was shocked to see them eating meat, the monks explained that Sakya Dhezhung was so holy that he was a complete vegetarian but that they had learned to eat meat in India and Nepal, over the years its always the leaders and top gurus that are vegetarian, most lay people eat meat but not much by american standards, ask any asian buddhist is it good not to eat meat and they will tell you yes the buddha didnt eat meat, not eating meat is very good, and its definetly better not to eat meat if you can, however they still eat meat!! what gives, kind like kids that keep sticking there hands in the fire, when will people learn its just bad karma.....
why did I quit? as is traditional for every male in southeast asia a devout buddhist becomes a monk for usually 3 months and 3 days or longer up to a lifetime if they so choose, my inspiration was a married man that regreted not doing it and became a monk for three days only, in therevada there is no time set or lifetime commitment for being a monk. I fully set out to try and do the 3 months but i have an illness that makes it very difficult for me to sleep without food in my stomach, the buddha strictly states that an exemption should be made for sick people to eat after 12Pm but the monks didnt understand this well enough as it was a higher teaching. i only broke the no food after 12 rule twice in three weeks but they knew about it, and i was chastized, they let you eat ice cream after 12 so thats how i did it, they were not at all happy that i wanted to quit as i was setting a very good example of a monk for a westerner, everyone else being asian, i had memorized several pages of the basic pali prayers, ironically i wasnt a full vegetarian myself when i lived at this(cambodian temple in Southern california)temple, they didnt have any vegetarians or much vege food to my chagrin, i ate a lot of donuts...... and yes of course the Buddha would makes some allowances for eskimos to eat meat, the buddha was practical, thats why he didnt call for a complete ban on meat, he knew the people wouldn't all be able to do it
I merely asked for scriptural evidence, not a whole tirade of ramblings.
And I still don't understand why you returned your vows.
For what it's worth, only the Mahayana Sutras talked about encouraging everyone to be vegetarian, but there's still no imposition. In the Pali Canon Buddha even admonished against institutionalized vegetarianism. How can a monk practice gratitude if he is not able to be thankful for the food he is offered for the day, even if it is meat?
And if you know where Tibet actually is, you would know that agriculture is near impossible, because of the terrain and climate. How can the Tibetans originally be vegetarian when all they are able to successfully cultivate naturally from the soil were barley, tea, and a few other plants? They couldn't grow a myriad of vegetables, everything had to be traded and brought in from passing caravans plying the Silk Route. The native nomads herded cattle and sheep and horses for a reason: they were food and clothing and shelter and transport. They did what they had to do in order to survive. So either you are lying or you have your history mixed up.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2011
reading is all very well. learning, is quite another. :rolleyes:
dorje, i told you dorje i didnt renounce any vow i quit being a monk early because i was starving after 12pm, and it was too hard for me, theres no sin in quitting being a monk in Theravada, in fact your considered a Bhikku for life kinda like a monk that doesnt wear robes and can get married, and are still venerated as religious leaders, but not here on this forum i guess, im just mad as hell at how i was treated in this 5 precept discussion i started 2 1/2 months ago, i set out with a heart of love and compassion to help people and got torn to shreds, on top of that it seems ive got my precepts in the wrong order, i was taught them on my five fingers, and somehow i may have them mixed up, and im manic right now, forgiveness?????????????
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The problem is, you don't make sense in a lot of what you say.
In the "Have you lied...." thread, you refuse to find links and references to where the Buddha said it was OK to lie. You said the Dhammapada contains references. I read the dhammapada every day. I have posted several quotations from the Dhammapada to back my comments and refuting your statements. You present nothing to anyone, as mitigating evidence, proof or foundation for your comments. You for all your hundreds of books read, can find no creditable source or link to back anything you say.
ps this was supposed to be a topic the 5 precepts and 90% of this replies have been about my overzealous interpretation of the no kill precept along with an air of disdain towards those that practise and preach the precept, i take this as a very disturbing trend for this site, and like it or not im going to be lurking here as i do on my violin repair forum as a "policeman" or BS detector, this is not kids play, peoples lives are at stake or at least their soul, we have the opportunity to really make a difference, false authorities claiming to be experts pop up with all kinds of gibberish and misinformation, thats how it is on the violin forum, and I see basically the same thing, like i say on the violin forum im not a top expert but I have 30yrs in the business, well in this case I wasnt a monk for long and ive made a lot of mistakes in my quest for enlightenment but at least im drug free now, im practising my religion in the simple basic way I perceive buddhism, and a lot of what I see here is not good, not good at all, I know meat is a sore point, how about 12 atepping it I ADMIT THAT I EAT TOO MUCH MEAT, if I could eat less meat i would be a better person because I am causing less suffereing, find a sponsor vegetarian buddhist to help sponsor you........
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Phschum!
Straight over your head....
Over-zealous would be right, especially as you are completely unable to back anything you say, up. as a 'Monk' (former, even so) you should have chapter and verse at your fingertips. You should be able to quote and give reference.
so your a meat eater that doesnt lie who thinks monks are supposed to be perfect and know everything, i tell the truth only, on some things thats how i remember it and i could be off but not on the idea of vegetarianism being a common long standing tradition in buddhism, not christianity, thats one of the main reasons im a buddhist and not a christian, as to your credentials federica, i have no idea what they are, you dont seem to understand therevada at all thats sad, maybe when im in a better mood we could teach ourselves a thing or too, i was really impressed by how hard you stood up for honesty, i tried to google you a link to that story about the deer but no luck, im scrupulously honest but i enjoy arguing a lot, my bad, i am manic-depressive and im not always like this
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2011
No, I never said Monks should be perfect. But I am implying you don't know half as much as you claim to. I seem to understand Theravada a darn sight more than you do. You seem to have muddied the waters with a good deal of inflexible and christian doctrine....
There is no "long-standing tradition" of vegetarianism in Buddhism. There may be in some traditions, but certainly not all. The Monastery I attend has monks who eat meat. It's a theravada Monastery, by the way....
so tell me where to find this link about the deer and the Buddha. There was a thread on here some time ago about the hunter chasing the rabbit, and the Buddha seeing which way it went, and responding to the hunter's question on where the rabbit was. I think it's a Koan designed to elicit responses on what we think the Buddha would reply, and I think it was hypothetical. is that what you're referring to?
I did a search and .found a link it's really quite easy when you put your mind to it. it comes from a book called "What would the Buddha do?" I recommend reading the first post.
were in gods earth did you get the idea i was claiming to know a lot about buddhist scripture, your link proves that the buddha didnt want the hunter eating meat and reccomends vegtable broth, but get real im a monk, one of millions, not an expert i always say, so you found the story its definetly not the versions i remember, so what if its not a deer, but a rabbit in your text, my expertise is practising buddhism and reaching a sub level of enlightenment where i dont suffer, so thats exciting, i live to tell about it, you wear your enlightenment like a bracelet on your wrist federico, you said there was no lying and here youre posting the story at least youre version here for all to see the buddha being dishonest by not telling the hunter were the rabbit is, you cant have it both ways you come out here all pro meat and anti lying and both your arguements crumble by your own posted link, my thinks you just want to stir thing up, you attend the monastery ask the monks one question is it considered better not to eat meat , or is vegetarianism frowned on in their tradition, if i knew you were honest i might even bet money they back me up, just kidding
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2011
As a monk, I would think you should know. Theravadan monks study the suttas, don't they? Why would you not know about them? unless, of course, you were only a monk for 10 minutes...
As for the rest of your post, you're just rambling and I have no idea what you're going on about, it's unintelligible, unpunctuated and frankly, you stopped making any coherent sense a long time ago.
3 weeks 10 minutes same thing, temple boy for 6 months and living at temples for two years is more important, there is a language barrier and only one very young monk spoke english at my temple, you mostly live by visual example and talk to lay people that know english, definetly not harvard school of buddhism or dharmasala for instance, my apologies again fedrica, im feeling much less manic today. sincerely present violin shop owner, john
ps theres only one person on my violin forum who im scared of and thats the moderator, boy did i screw up, i have utmost respect for moderators, i used to be one for a violin forum in scotland and its incredibly hard full time work with little or no pay, john
Any Buddhist can do what they deem fit for themselves, and nobody else has any right to tell them otherwise.
This is, paradoxically, equally an assertion of an ethical position. Is Buddhism a liberal tradition too, where morality is a choice or does it have some sense of coherent moral sanction, such as we don't do genocide? I think there are some limits and unnecessary cruelty is one.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
This is, paradoxically, equally an assertion of an ethical position. Is Buddhism a liberal tradition too, where morality is a choice or does it have some sense of coherent moral sanction, such as we don't do genocide? I think there are some limits and unnecessary cruelty is one.
Morality is a choice. of course it is, Buddhism or not. But Buddhism clearly indicates the advantages and virtues of Morality, and the disadvantages of acting otherwise. But it's an indicator, not a definitive and concrete directive. Unnecessary cruelty is certainly a moral no-no. However, there are many Buddhists who eat meat, and as such, you must respect their opinion and reasoning for doing so. Even if it grates against your own sensibilities. Stand by what you believe. Adhere to your principles, but have an open mind, and relax.
southeast asian therevada buddhism is about the same moral conservatism as fundamentalist christian, tibetan buddhism practised in america can be very liberal but i doubt that was as true in tibet of old, go to a good thai restaurant and watch how the people work, thats usually an example of buddhists, no died hair, no tatoos,old fashioned clothes, if youre attracted to liberalism buddhism might dissapoint you, especially when you take advice from the monks, you may find it just old fashioned, but thats good in my book
Comments
all of the women in my family are plagued with horrible menstruation cramps until they have kids, so i guess i never really thought about it too much. my gyno has just suggested i could be put on birth control, but it is not a possibility that i would become pregnant so i don't wish to do that. and like i said, i used to have them when i was younger but a veg diet makes these sort of periods quite rare for me. i would think if it was a result of a thyroid problem it would stay the same. i'm kind of a hypochondriac so i did research the thyroid thing and atm, i do think i have several of the symptoms (which may or may not be me just being a hypochondriac), but i will probably suggest this to my doctor at my next visit and see what he thinks. thanks for your input!
How did you find us, cur?
As far as I know according to the Pali Canon Buddha explicitly refuted Devadatta's insistence that all those who followed the Buddha to go vegetarian. Simply because it would not be practical, especially for those monks who still go on alms rounds for their daily meal. What if someone decided to offer meat? If you throw it away then it would be a downfall. As a former monk sure you know this.
May I enquire why you returned your monk's vow, if I may be so daring?
This probably depends on the person, if you think its morally questionable to eat meat than you probably shouldn't.
I probably would be a vegetarian if i was brought up that way - my knowledge of vegetarian cooking is still limited and therefore i don't know if i'd eat enough of vitamins and such if i only cut meat out of my diet.
I also don't think its any more moral to just buy meat but not kill animals, since the butcher could have the same reasons - he's a vegetarian, but doesn't want to loose his job since he doesn't know how else he'll pay his rent next month..
Besides, take another example - most people agree that killing jews or putting them in concentration camps is not ethical; but what if you only payed someone to regularily supply you with bones of jews that you knew he killed?
True, we need to kill living beings to survive, be it plants or animals. But i don't think that just pretending that we are not taking their lives because they are such or our belief is such that it makes any different. Therefore i also find intention very important. I don't think we should stop eating now (since that is not really a sensible option), but we should make very sure that we do not waste our food (that is, not throw it away or let it go bad), regardelss of its kind.
why did I quit?
as is traditional for every male in southeast asia a devout buddhist becomes a monk for usually 3 months and 3 days or longer up to a lifetime if they so choose, my inspiration was a married man that regreted not doing it and became a monk for three days only, in therevada there is no time set or lifetime commitment for being a monk. I fully set out to try and do the 3 months but i have an illness that makes it very difficult for me to sleep without food in my stomach, the buddha strictly states that an exemption should be made for sick people to eat after 12Pm but the monks didnt understand this well enough as it was a higher teaching. i only broke the no food after 12 rule twice in three weeks but they knew about it, and i was chastized, they let you eat ice cream after 12 so thats how i did it, they were not at all happy that i wanted to quit as i was setting a very good example of a monk for a westerner, everyone else
being asian, i had memorized several pages of the basic pali prayers, ironically i wasnt a full vegetarian myself when i lived at this(cambodian temple in Southern california)temple, they didnt have any vegetarians or much vege food to my chagrin, i ate a lot of donuts...... and yes of course the Buddha would makes some allowances for eskimos to eat meat, the buddha was practical, thats why he didnt call for a complete ban on meat, he knew the people wouldn't all be able to do it
And I still don't understand why you returned your vows.
For what it's worth, only the Mahayana Sutras talked about encouraging everyone to be vegetarian, but there's still no imposition. In the Pali Canon Buddha even admonished against institutionalized vegetarianism. How can a monk practice gratitude if he is not able to be thankful for the food he is offered for the day, even if it is meat?
And if you know where Tibet actually is, you would know that agriculture is near impossible, because of the terrain and climate. How can the Tibetans originally be vegetarian when all they are able to successfully cultivate naturally from the soil were barley, tea, and a few other plants? They couldn't grow a myriad of vegetables, everything had to be traded and brought in from passing caravans plying the Silk Route. The native nomads herded cattle and sheep and horses for a reason: they were food and clothing and shelter and transport. They did what they had to do in order to survive. So either you are lying or you have your history mixed up.
In the "Have you lied...." thread, you refuse to find links and references to where the Buddha said it was OK to lie. You said the Dhammapada contains references. I read the dhammapada every day. I have posted several quotations from the Dhammapada to back my comments and refuting your statements. You present nothing to anyone, as mitigating evidence, proof or foundation for your comments.
You for all your hundreds of books read, can find no creditable source or link to back anything you say.
Straight over your head....
Over-zealous would be right, especially as you are completely unable to back anything you say, up.
as a 'Monk' (former, even so) you should have chapter and verse at your fingertips. You should be able to quote and give reference.
I seem to understand Theravada a darn sight more than you do. You seem to have muddied the waters with a good deal of inflexible and christian doctrine....
There is no "long-standing tradition" of vegetarianism in Buddhism. There may be in some traditions, but certainly not all. The Monastery I attend has monks who eat meat. It's a theravada Monastery, by the way....
so tell me where to find this link about the deer and the Buddha.
There was a thread on here some time ago about the hunter chasing the rabbit, and the Buddha seeing which way it went, and responding to the hunter's question on where the rabbit was. I think it's a Koan designed to elicit responses on what we think the Buddha would reply, and I think it was hypothetical.
is that what you're referring to?
I did a search and .found a link
it's really quite easy when you put your mind to it.
it comes from a book called "What would the Buddha do?" I recommend reading the first post.
unless, of course, you were only a monk for 10 minutes...
As for the rest of your post, you're just rambling and I have no idea what you're going on about, it's unintelligible, unpunctuated and frankly, you stopped making any coherent sense a long time ago.
Unnecessary cruelty is certainly a moral no-no. However, there are many Buddhists who eat meat, and as such, you must respect their opinion and reasoning for doing so. Even if it grates against your own sensibilities. Stand by what you believe. Adhere to your principles, but have an open mind, and relax.