How long does it take to develop the concentration needed for insight practice?

Thus

Is "access concentration" a pre-requisite to being able to examine the three characteristics moment-to-moment?

buddhajunkie

No. But if you can reach access then your insight will be deeper and will have a stronger impact on you off the cushion. But I do at least recommend reserving the first part of your session to concentration. However even this isn't necessary.

footiam

It should depend on the person.

Thus

Thanks for the responses. Are concentration and insight cultivated alongside each other? Or do you start with concentration and then move to insight. Or do they alternative and reinforce each other during the sit?

DhammaDhatu

Is "access concentration" a pre-requisite to being able to examine the three characteristics moment-to-moment?

My opinion to the question is "yes".

If the mind is to have lucid moment-to-moment vipassana on the various objects of meditation (such as the in & out breathing) then access concentration is required.

Everything must flow freely. The mind must be flexible so it can be pervasive (like water soaking & flowing).

Access concentration will develop when we can maintain a silent stillness of mind for the entire meditation free from effort.

Such concentration has its foundation in letting go or abandonment.

Best wishes

DD

Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

Maha-salayatanika Sutta

sukhita

In response to the OP's question:

Is "access concentration" a pre-requisite to being able to examine the three characteristics moment-to-moment?

we have three answers, basically: No, Maybe, Yes. It seems that these different views are the result of different schools/traditions of Buddhism and the meditation teachers. As for me, I will continue with concentration-based meditation. Perhaps "insight" will arise automatically when the time is right.

TheDoctorDonna

Thanks for the responses. Are concentration and insight cultivated alongside each other? Or do you start with concentration and then move to insight. Or do they alternative and reinforce each other during the sit?

In my expeareance, Consentration and Insight meditation re enforce each other. As it is very difficult to maintain insight meditation without failing into thinking, I redirect my mind to basic breathing when it wanders of topic, then go back to the insight conponant.

Hope this helps.

upekka

it depend on the person (his capability to involve in Dhamma vicaya without going astray)

since we never know how long we have been practicing meditation (in our previous lives) it is advisable to practice concentration meditation for a while before start Insight meditation

DhammaDhatu

It seems that these different views are the result of different schools/traditions of Buddhism and the meditation teachers. As for me, I will continue with concentration-based meditation. Perhaps "insight" will arise automatically when the time is right.

Hi

My answer has nothing to do with different schools/traditions of Buddhism and the meditation teachers.

Insight will occur when the mind has samma samadhi (right concentration).

Buddha said right concentration has one object, namely, abandonment or relinquishment.

All the best

There is nothing difficult about the Great Way,
But, avoid choosing!
Only when you neither love nor hate,
Does it appear in all clarity.

A hair's breadth of deviation from it,
And deep gulf is set between heaven and earth.

Perfect like a Great Space,
The Way has nothing lacking, nothing in excess.

The activity of the Great Way is vast;
It is neither easy nor difficult.
Small views are full of foxy fears;
The faster, the slower.

When we attach ourselves (to the idea of enlightenment) we lose our balance;
We infallibly enter the Crooked Way.
When we are not attached to anything, all things are as they are;
With Activity there is no going or staying.

Empty, lucid, self-illuminated,
With no over-exertion of the power of the mind.

Hsin-Hsin Ming

As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

Ajaan Buddhadasa

buddhajunkie

Lol, I like the different answers.

However, upon re-examination, I believe the OP asked 2 different questions. And I will (re-)answer them separately. (I believe I misinterpreted the second question based on the first question.)

How long does it take to develop the concentration needed for insight practice?

(Emphasis added)

Insight practice begins the moment you try to be mindful of a distraction, i.e., you deliberately let your attention linger lightly on a distraction. Therefore, the answer is, "Almost immediately."

Of course, with shallow concentration your insight will be relatively shallow as well, and you will have fewer of them.

Is "access concentration" a pre-requisite to being able to examine the three characteristics moment-to-moment?

(Emphasis added)

By definition, access concentration is that which allows you to continuously see the arising and falling of sensations, feelings, mental objects, etc. As far as I have seen, "access concentration" and "momentary concentration" are synonymous.

So the answer is "yes."


I just want to be clear, though, that you do not need to reach access concentration to engage in a fruitful insight/mindfulness practice. It is desirable but not necessary. Otherwise, most casual meditators would be wasting their time.


Finally, it helps to reflect on the Five Faculties and their relation to one another:

1. faith/confidence
2. energy/effort
3. mindfulness
4. concentration
5. wisdom

A common interpretation is that each faculty depends upon the previous faculties. Thus, while it is known that greater concentration leads to greater mindfulness, we also see that concentration depends on mindfulness. So they are inter-related and complementary.

iamchandramani

I'm not really sure what the goal is of your meditation. Whether it'd be for relaxation or for spiritual purposes, one should not focus too much on the techniques or anticipate for the results otherwise one's meditation will only become empty like "deadwood". It should come natural and effortless. Here is a good discourse on meditation for BUDDHIST practitioners, http://www.zhaxizhuoma.net/DHARMA/meditation.html.

I really believe it all concludes to how we cultivate ourselves. Cultivation is not easy. It means cutting off all evil thoughts, speech, and action, and only doing good deeds. Through cultivation, one should establish a pure, clean mind, achieve a content heart, and adhere to a correct way of contemplation by abiding rules or precepts. All of these are part of cultivation.

I hope this helps.

DhammaDhatu

Lol, I like the different answers.

Great

I see things a little differently

The Theravada tradition lists three levels of concentration:

1. Momentary concentration
2. Access or neighbourhood concentration
3. Attainment concentration (jhana)

Moment-to-moment insight requires access concentration

Momentary concentration is insufficent for moment-to-moment insight

When access concentration occurs, the mind will not continuously see the arising and falling of sensations, feelings, mental objects, etc, because the mind is too still & clear to have a multitude of mind objects

Instead, the mind will continuously see the arising and falling of different objects for prolonged periods of time

For example, when access concentration is established, the mind will first continuously see the arising and passing of the in & out breathing. it will see clearly the 'body breathes' (anatta) rather than 'i breathe'. any notion that 'i breathe' will completely dissolve

As access concentration is established, even at this level, the mind will start clearly realising the Four Noble Truths, that abandoning craving & grasping manifests peace

In continuously seeing the in & out breathing, the in & out breathing will also tranquilise. the mind will simultaneously develop tranquility

When tranquility is complete, rapture & happiness (feelings) will then arise as the primary objects of meditation. just like the in & out breathing, due to the access concentration, the mind will clearly see the feelings as feelings (anatta); there will be a detached space or distance between the feelings, consciousness and any thoughts of "I". any notion that 'i feel', "i am happy', will completely dissolve. the sense of "I" may still remain in the mind but the mind will clearly see the feelings are not 'me'.

please note: these feelings are not on the level of jhana because, on the level of access concentration, the mind will not have developed total one-pointedness, when the mind is glued to a mental image, without the least movement

access concentration will follow the stages set out in the Anapanasati Sutta (rather than the general advice in the Satipatthana Sutta)

all the best

DD

Vincenzi

I practice anapanasati... not "access" or "insight" anything... just anapanasati.

DhammaDhatu

DhammaDhatu

anapanasati is described in sixteen stages by the Buddha

stages 1 & 2 are preliminary. they are for developing concentration but the concentration is not yet right concentration (samma samadhi)

stages 3 to 16 include right concentration because they begin with the words: "He trains himself".

"He trains himself" occurs when the mind is established in the three trainings of the path, namely, wisdom, morality & concentration. Wisdom means the Four Noble Truths are engaged, where craving & attachment are continuously being abandoned. Such engagement of wisdom (or abandonment) forms the basis of concentration & morality

stages 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 & 11 are primarily the development of concentration and/or tranquility

stages 3, 7, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 & 16 are primarily the development of insight

note: the translations of the Western translators (Nanamoli, Bodhi, Thanissaro) are generally incorrect

only Bhikkhu Buddhadasa has accurately translated the Anapanasati Sutta

stage 3 is "experiencing all bodies" (which is to see both the 'breath body' and the 'physical body' and the cause & effect relationship between them, how the breath conditions or influences the state of the physical body). As the Buddha states in the Anapanasati Sutta, the in & out breaths are 'bodies' amongst 'bodies'. the word 'sabba' in 'sabba kaya' means 'all' rather than 'whole'

stage 7 is "experiencing the mind conditioner" (which means to experience how the feelings of rapture & happiness, which have different strengths & attributes, affect the mind). the word 'citta sankhara' means 'mind conditioner' rather than 'mental fabrication or condition'. as the Dhamma states, pleasant feelings condition greed/love/lust and unpleasant feelings condition hatred/anger/ill-will. feelings are the 'mind conditioner' or 'mind fabricator' rather than the 'mental condition' or 'mental fabrication'

so Anapanasati, as taught by the Buddha, develops both tranquility & insight

Anapanasati developes the seven factors of enlightenment

factors 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6 are factors of concentration and/or tranquility

factors 2 and 7 are factors of insight

so from the very beginning, namely, factors 1 & 2, there is both concentration & insight

all the best

fabianfred

Some people, like to say that we must attain concentration to access level first, and some that we should attain the first jhana....and then coming out of jhana practice vipassana whilst the distractions are still quieted.

Remember that one cannot attain to Nirvana by the practice of concentration alone.
Why do i say that? Because concentration techniques are practiced by meditators in all ages and religions, so if one could attain nirvana by oneself that way, there would be no need for Buddhas.
Only when a Buddha appears do we get to know the method to reach nirvana....mindfulness.