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That was an interesting looking article, though I've read little of it at this point it looks promising. Because of the very, very skeptical nature of my roommate with whom I debate on philosophy nearly every day and the fact that I describe my jhana experience as my ace in the hole conviction-wise for the sorts of snobby, western-philosophy-centrical intellectuals I usually wind up debating with in real life I'd love if I could find a way to get him to experience jhana, maybe that will be the article for the job. (Ignore all implicit proselytizing please.) ..
I can't say with absolute certainty that I experienced a particular jhana's number, nor is it necessarily wise to do so. However, for me, the first jhana is usually characterized as a very blatant, physically pleasure-ridden seizure of the body. It is unmistakable, and usually though with experience one may be able to determine when jhana is just around the corner, irregardless when the turn is taken it is very abrupt, flagrant and impulsively obtrusive on the mind and senses. I could see by what little I read by the article that the saḷāyatana (six sense spheres) are entirely eliminated, however it is very certain that on some level a sort of (as I have said to triteness) quasi-body orgasm is felt, not dissimilar to how I'd imagine a woman feels during a better time in bed.
Whereas the first jhana was induced before I knew of the existence of jhana, the second is possibly diluted by projections of what I've expected and aimed toward through my voluminous Googling after the first jhanic experience. Nonetheless, it has been characterized by a loss or at least de-emphasis of the first's orgasmic-like feeling. As is often stated, that feeling is to be turned inward rather than the apparent, explicit feelings upon the body (this could be attributed to fluctuations in dopamine vs. opioid levels being fed to the brain's receptors from the link in my previous post). Unfortunately, as you may have already suspected, this second jhana isn't quite as obvious as the first, and there's quite the grey area so-to-speak, hence the linking to that article above that I am again linking to *wink wink*.
The third has been very rare if I've even experienced it at all. I reckon it was probably this scenario I'm about to quote on account that the principal and first time I experienced it was not under sobriety:
The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.
After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.
I've never experienced the fourth, obviously. Or I'd probably be a monk.
@shanyin Thank you for being patient. Let me please ask you to lend me some patience as well. My living arrangements don't offer me many opportunities for good, long, or frequent meditations--usually only a single one immediately before sleep that evolves straight into sleep just as my mind becomes quite settled. However, I can remedy this situation with some effort, I've been wanting to anyways for obvious reasons. (Interesting how I've found motivation in such a way? I immediately think of bodhicitta, which is funny because although I'd call myself non-sectarian, if I were to cut the bullshit I'm basically an indecisive Theravadin on account of my lack of scholarship. So this first case of bodhicitta = motivation is very interesting).
Anyways, I'm wondering if it'd be intelligent to post whatever my methods are publicly for censure and approval. Then PMing would probably be wise afterwards .
Last night I meditated to jhana then I wrote a little synopsis about the process. There's a certain point when I come to a crossroads and choose either concentration games or vipassana if I am intent on jhana, those games of which I believe were your initial question and I didn't write about them last night since I didn't use them. At the same time, due to my living arrangements and lifestyle, I don't have the internet at my apartment and I've left the flashdrive there amidst distractions and because my entire town is blanketed in a thick layer of ice I really don't want to walk there right now. Fortunately I thought it might be a good idea to keep a log and either post a week long meditation diary or to weed through all my records for the week and write a synthesized manual on Joshish meditation. I will probably do a little of both, but I will probably post that synopsis tomorrow after I edit in the missing section on concentration games to get any necessary "censure and approval" in my own words. I can't be building an infrastructure on a shoddy foundation, eh?
Don't worry, I'm well aware that I'm extremely long-winded so I will endeavor to keep it as brief as words permit.
Thank you again, shanyin; and thanks for everyone else reading this. I was very fortunate to get so much attention on this thread.
Joshua, you should get over to Dharma Overground or Kenneth Folk Dharma, lots of experienced people over there who have mastered all jhanas. I agree the taboo to not talk about experience is dumb. Daniel Ingram who started DhO is very open about his experiences and wrote a free ebook which gives solid advice on making progress through concentration and vipassana.
To my analysis there are three stages to meditation, because I taught myself to meditate more or less I do not subscribe to a rigid Shamatha nor Vipissana. They are:
1) a. Distinguished by incessant mental wondering and gossip, nothing more than closing the eyes and calming the senses. The key here is patience and diligence of one-pointedness when it seemingly cannot be kept. b. There comes a point when the mental wondering has waned, when it becomes clear that the depth of meditation and stillness of mind are directly proportional to an elimination of the aggregates, particularly the fourth aggregate--thought-constructs (samskara). This is when I personally begin to deliberate on what will be most efficient meditational method for the day to achieve access concentration.
2) Distinguished by a substantial decrease of mental wandering and a near absense of the first aggregate which results in a near lack of registering the first five sense spheres, I assume it is because the sixth sense sphere has also dramatically halted that this stage certainly feels like an intermediary stage between first sitting and jhana. As this stage progressesses you will be getting surprising close to jhana, I wouldn't be surprised if many reach this stage and approach the border but fail to cross it because of the strength of the first four aggregates, namely the middle three, all the while never thinking they were close if months or years have passed without results. This stage is when the analogy of a ripple appearing on the ocean and disappearing back from whence it came becomes strikingly real. As you approach the end of this stage nothing, not even the quotidian stress will beckon your monkey mind anymore. But here you will remain unless you eliminate perception, feelings and thought-constructs entirely while using those very means to do so. You will find it helpful to want more than jhana if you intend to "reach jhana by not wanting jhana". If it is only jhana that you want and you find yourself stuck at this border, you will have to play concentration games (* see below). Remember that jhana is not enlightenment, only a means of halting karma to particularly help the fifth noble path--right livelihood.
3) If you're eliminating the aggregates you may catch glimpses of jhana as you waver in and out of the fetter of the aggregates until it becomes strong, if you're using concentration games I find that it will take longer to reach but tends to be quite sudden. However, it is usually impossible to surpass the first jhana with such games, if you manage to switch tactics from concentration games to aggregate elimination via vipassana smoothly enough to not loose jhana then you sometimes can sustain it until the second jhana but it is very fragile and will inevitably collapse on account that if you'd been able to eliminate the aggregates in the first place, then you would have done so. Either way, traditionally or game-wise, if you "like" the jhana, you've now beckoned feeling, which is dependent on perception and by extention it won't be long until you on a subtle level begin with volitional deliberations. Therefore it's likely that you will make a blunder of jhana within thirty seconds. This is normal. This is the point, to demonstrate your slavery to the aggregates. But congratulations if you've reached it.
..
* Concentration games: These are not easy and when I was teaching myself to meditate I was using these as nothing more than to "stop thinking on any subtle level I could help", I see how this may be a bit misguided now that I can use 'insight' to get there which comes with a more stable jhana. I also was very attached to jhana at first and got angry when I couldn't reach it, this contributed to embellishing my games and getting into the habit of improvising something each day if the favorites didn't work. If you intend to try this you'll have to do the same, though I don't know if I should recommend it at all, a misguided jhana has its pros and cons.
Some favorites were: 1. Make a noise with your mouth or think a thought, find the sources either like your throat or somewhere in your head (for me around my pineal gland, in the center of my brain); choose only one. Find a noise and focus on where you hear it inside you. Take the first source and the second and combine them together like a thumb rubbing a finger. Hold this. This concentration is similar to the intuitive one you'll develop to get to jhana through any game and sometimes to bump your ass along when vipassana wasn't enough. Do this only at the end of stage 2 above. If done too soon you will only accomplish psychologically defeating yourself. 2. This isn't much of a game but if you get good you will be able to obviously expand in the future. Find a sound source that's constant and changes little; attempt to merge with it. For me this has been a space heater. Maybe a distant humming. Maybe a ringing in my ear. concentrate on it until and don't analyze it, that's the fourth aggregates. Focus on the second aggregate, perceive that you perceive to endeavor not to perceive. You can be more liberal with this from step one until jhana, but it will work best the closer you get to stage 3. 3. This is an offshoot of the game above and one that I've discovered isn't dissimilar to a Tibetan method. It won't be quite as liberal as the one above, you can technically do it at any stage but if the mind is wandering too much it won't be effective, it works very well in stage 2. Imagine a dot. Now two.. three.. four.. five.. continue for as long as you can maintain this. Don't make it too difficult or you'll start thinking "am I forgetting a dot?". I usually will do 6, maybe 8 or 10 and in two rows to make it simple. Focus on every dot individually with all your attention. The sort of intense concentration will feel exactly like the first game if you're doing it correctly.
You and I are different people, I can't even use my own games from day to day let alone could you use mine at all necessarily. So try to feel things out on your own using these as inspiration if you intend to try games. Hope this helps.
Curious.. where do you watch the breath? I have been having trouble trying to learn the belly method.
It's not a good feeling when can't really meditate anymore.
I pay special attention to the space between breaths. Between the inbreath and outbreath seem to be really powerful, though the opposite has happened with power as well.
I experienced third or fourth jhana (can't remember the definitions) by accident long before I experienced first jhana. it arose from an experience of terrible defeat and grief.
Don't get too caught up with hierarchies by which to measure progress. Maybe they can be useful sometimes, but they're not the only way things can happen.
Hi fivebells,
Yes, I experienced the 8th jhana spontaneously at 14 just by looking at a picture of an Indian meditation master before really attempting any jhana at all. After this experience though all I wanted to do was renounce all worldly activity, live in an ashram and be a monk. I wasn't able to monk it at the time as this Indian Master was not making anymore monks. So, I left the ashram, and forgot the experience even happened until about 7 years later. I then started to practice and go through the "rupa" jhanas which took lots of concerted effort on my part.
The initial experience arose dependent upon effort and fruit which had occurred in previous lives. I was a better yogi in previous lives than I am in this life. Which is interesting. Basically, I'm saying that I agree, progress is non-linear.
That's intersting Vajra. A Lama told me he thought I was a monk in my last life and meditation made me very peaceful quickly, which I found out can be a sign of that.
I found a book in the library the other day by a man who is apparently trying to prove that if westerners can recall past lives it can really improve their happiness. Anyways. I could look it up.
I found a book in the library the other day by a man who is apparently trying to prove that if westerners can recall past lives it can really improve their happiness. Anyways. I could look it up.
BBL.
LOL! Yes...
It increased my happiness!! I mean... to know directly the ramifications of Buddhadharma into wider dimensions of experience is amazing! I think it helps when trying to understand the intention of mahayana.
Joshua, when someone enters jhana the 5 hinderances are not present.
Yes, the 5 hindrances need to be temporarily suspended. The jhanas are increasingly refined levels of concentration and not that remarkable or mysterious. They provide a basis for insight to develop.
Yes, I've been getting the idea around the net that jhana is probably pretty normal for serious dharma practitioners and monks. It seems to only be the tip of the iceberg, even if in deep states of jhana the possibility of having a so called "fall from grace" in future life times is probably quite possible. Maybe before I die I'll rest in the deepest jhanas and be in the so called "pure lands" only to wind up being a cockroach in a few more lifetimes because I failed to withhold from acting upon my negative karmic potentials, maybe a big one could build up, who knows what lies dormant in my karmic legacies!
Or does a mastery of the fourth jhana necessitate a mastery of emptiness and thus imply stream-entry? Probably not..
Hmmm.. thinking about this thread I was wondering about my experience with jhana. I am wondering if I actually experienced the second, because I had two blissfull feelings during my session, one after the other.
The first when it happened (which was years ago so it's hard to describe) I thought of it as just, perfect peace and like a warmth. Then I kept going, trying harder to concentrate and then it was like pure bliss. It was so out of the realm I had thought was possible for a human to experience I couldn't sit there, when it happened I stopped and stood up like YESS.
A stream enterer does not consider himself a stream enterer. Because that would mean he was caught in an idea of a self, a lifetime, and a being.
I hear this a lot.
And yet there is an entire forum dedicated to people striving for attainments while following the advice of self-exploited attainees @ Dharma Overground.
People get too caught up in this relativity vs. absolutism business. I don't think the stream-enterer who is still fully a victim of the last seven fetters and partially the first three will fail to realize that he has personally attained great spiritual advancement. Like the jhanas "not being by the numbers" so the attainments are without solid boundaries. In this respect along with the natural skepticism and doubt that follows I doubt that a stream-enterer will gloat and certainly would in an arabesquely humble act of skill circumvent such claims. However, if an arahant will admit that he is enlightened if the occasion demands such (ranging from our Gautama to the recommended and self-professed Daniel Ingram) why wouldn't a stream-enterer of greater self-identification not also follow suit?
Hmmm.. thinking about this thread I was wondering about my experience with jhana. I am wondering if I actually experienced the second, because I had two blissfull feelings during my session, one after the other.
The first when it happened (which was years ago so it's hard to describe) I thought of it as just, perfect peace and like a warmth. Then I kept going, trying harder to concentrate and then it was like pure bliss. It was so out of the realm I had thought was possible for a human to experience I couldn't sit there, when it happened I stopped and stood up like YESS.
Oh well doesn't matter.
Man, I am not the person to ask.
All I can stress is that you'll know you've hit the first when you're having a quasi-body orgasm. It's just too distinct.
Comments
..
I can't say with absolute certainty that I experienced a particular jhana's number, nor is it necessarily wise to do so. However, for me, the first jhana is usually characterized as a very blatant, physically pleasure-ridden seizure of the body. It is unmistakable, and usually though with experience one may be able to determine when jhana is just around the corner, irregardless when the turn is taken it is very abrupt, flagrant and impulsively obtrusive on the mind and senses. I could see by what little I read by the article that the saḷāyatana (six sense spheres) are entirely eliminated, however it is very certain that on some level a sort of (as I have said to triteness) quasi-body orgasm is felt, not dissimilar to how I'd imagine a woman feels during a better time in bed.
Whereas the first jhana was induced before I knew of the existence of jhana, the second is possibly diluted by projections of what I've expected and aimed toward through my voluminous Googling after the first jhanic experience. Nonetheless, it has been characterized by a loss or at least de-emphasis of the first's orgasmic-like feeling. As is often stated, that feeling is to be turned inward rather than the apparent, explicit feelings upon the body (this could be attributed to fluctuations in dopamine vs. opioid levels being fed to the brain's receptors from the link in my previous post). Unfortunately, as you may have already suspected, this second jhana isn't quite as obvious as the first, and there's quite the grey area so-to-speak, hence the linking to that article above that I am again linking to *wink wink*.
The third has been very rare if I've even experienced it at all. I reckon it was probably this scenario I'm about to quote on account that the principal and first time I experienced it was not under sobriety: I've never experienced the fourth, obviously. Or I'd probably be a monk.
@shanyin
Thank you for being patient. Let me please ask you to lend me some patience as well. My living arrangements don't offer me many opportunities for good, long, or frequent meditations--usually only a single one immediately before sleep that evolves straight into sleep just as my mind becomes quite settled. However, I can remedy this situation with some effort, I've been wanting to anyways for obvious reasons. (Interesting how I've found motivation in such a way? I immediately think of bodhicitta, which is funny because although I'd call myself non-sectarian, if I were to cut the bullshit I'm basically an indecisive Theravadin on account of my lack of scholarship. So this first case of bodhicitta = motivation is very interesting).
Anyways, I'm wondering if it'd be intelligent to post whatever my methods are publicly for censure and approval. Then PMing would probably be wise afterwards
Last night I meditated to jhana then I wrote a little synopsis about the process. There's a certain point when I come to a crossroads and choose either concentration games or vipassana if I am intent on jhana, those games of which I believe were your initial question and I didn't write about them last night since I didn't use them. At the same time, due to my living arrangements and lifestyle, I don't have the internet at my apartment and I've left the flashdrive there amidst distractions and because my entire town is blanketed in a thick layer of ice I really don't want to walk there right now. Fortunately I thought it might be a good idea to keep a log and either post a week long meditation diary or to weed through all my records for the week and write a synthesized manual on Joshish meditation. I will probably do a little of both, but I will probably post that synopsis tomorrow after I edit in the missing section on concentration games to get any necessary "censure and approval" in my own words. I can't be building an infrastructure on a shoddy foundation, eh?
Don't worry, I'm well aware that I'm extremely long-winded so I will endeavor to keep it as brief as words permit.
Thank you again, shanyin; and thanks for everyone else reading this. I was very fortunate to get so much attention on this thread.
Thank you. Seriously.
I will be checking them out.
@shanyin
To my analysis there are three stages to meditation, because I taught myself to meditate more or less I do not subscribe to a rigid Shamatha nor Vipissana. They are:
1) a. Distinguished by incessant mental wondering and gossip, nothing more than closing the eyes and calming the senses. The key here is patience and diligence of one-pointedness when it seemingly cannot be kept.
b. There comes a point when the mental wondering has waned, when it becomes clear that the depth of meditation and stillness of mind are directly proportional to an elimination of the aggregates, particularly the fourth aggregate--thought-constructs (samskara). This is when I personally begin to deliberate on what will be most efficient meditational method for the day to achieve access concentration.
2) Distinguished by a substantial decrease of mental wandering and a near absense of the first aggregate which results in a near lack of registering the first five sense spheres, I assume it is because the sixth sense sphere has also dramatically halted that this stage certainly feels like an intermediary stage between first sitting and jhana. As this stage progressesses you will be getting surprising close to jhana, I wouldn't be surprised if many reach this stage and approach the border but fail to cross it because of the strength of the first four aggregates, namely the middle three, all the while never thinking they were close if months or years have passed without results. This stage is when the analogy of a ripple appearing on the ocean and disappearing back from whence it came becomes strikingly real. As you approach the end of this stage nothing, not even the quotidian stress will beckon your monkey mind anymore. But here you will remain unless you eliminate perception, feelings and thought-constructs entirely while using those very means to do so. You will find it helpful to want more than jhana if you intend to "reach jhana by not wanting jhana". If it is only jhana that you want and you find yourself stuck at this border, you will have to play concentration games (* see below). Remember that jhana is not enlightenment, only a means of halting karma to particularly help the fifth noble path--right livelihood.
3) If you're eliminating the aggregates you may catch glimpses of jhana as you waver in and out of the fetter of the aggregates until it becomes strong, if you're using concentration games I find that it will take longer to reach but tends to be quite sudden. However, it is usually impossible to surpass the first jhana with such games, if you manage to switch tactics from concentration games to aggregate elimination via vipassana smoothly enough to not loose jhana then you sometimes can sustain it until the second jhana but it is very fragile and will inevitably collapse on account that if you'd been able to eliminate the aggregates in the first place, then you would have done so. Either way, traditionally or game-wise, if you "like" the jhana, you've now beckoned feeling, which is dependent on perception and by extention it won't be long until you on a subtle level begin with volitional deliberations. Therefore it's likely that you will make a blunder of jhana within thirty seconds. This is normal. This is the point, to demonstrate your slavery to the aggregates. But congratulations if you've reached it.
..
* Concentration games:
These are not easy and when I was teaching myself to meditate I was using these as nothing more than to "stop thinking on any subtle level I could help", I see how this may be a bit misguided now that I can use 'insight' to get there which comes with a more stable jhana. I also was very attached to jhana at first and got angry when I couldn't reach it, this contributed to embellishing my games and getting into the habit of improvising something each day if the favorites didn't work. If you intend to try this you'll have to do the same, though I don't know if I should recommend it at all, a misguided jhana has its pros and cons.
Some favorites were:
1. Make a noise with your mouth or think a thought, find the sources either like your throat or somewhere in your head (for me around my pineal gland, in the center of my brain); choose only one. Find a noise and focus on where you hear it inside you. Take the first source and the second and combine them together like a thumb rubbing a finger. Hold this. This concentration is similar to the intuitive one you'll develop to get to jhana through any game and sometimes to bump your ass along when vipassana wasn't enough. Do this only at the end of stage 2 above. If done too soon you will only accomplish psychologically defeating yourself.
2. This isn't much of a game but if you get good you will be able to obviously expand in the future. Find a sound source that's constant and changes little; attempt to merge with it. For me this has been a space heater. Maybe a distant humming. Maybe a ringing in my ear. concentrate on it until and don't analyze it, that's the fourth aggregates. Focus on the second aggregate, perceive that you perceive to endeavor not to perceive. You can be more liberal with this from step one until jhana, but it will work best the closer you get to stage 3.
3. This is an offshoot of the game above and one that I've discovered isn't dissimilar to a Tibetan method. It won't be quite as liberal as the one above, you can technically do it at any stage but if the mind is wandering too much it won't be effective, it works very well in stage 2. Imagine a dot. Now two.. three.. four.. five.. continue for as long as you can maintain this. Don't make it too difficult or you'll start thinking "am I forgetting a dot?". I usually will do 6, maybe 8 or 10 and in two rows to make it simple. Focus on every dot individually with all your attention. The sort of intense concentration will feel exactly like the first game if you're doing it correctly.
You and I are different people, I can't even use my own games from day to day let alone could you use mine at all necessarily. So try to feel things out on your own using these as inspiration if you intend to try games. Hope this helps.
Yes, I experienced the 8th jhana spontaneously at 14 just by looking at a picture of an Indian meditation master before really attempting any jhana at all. After this experience though all I wanted to do was renounce all worldly activity, live in an ashram and be a monk. I wasn't able to monk it at the time as this Indian Master was not making anymore monks. So, I left the ashram, and forgot the experience even happened until about 7 years later. I then started to practice and go through the "rupa" jhanas which took lots of concerted effort on my part.
The initial experience arose dependent upon effort and fruit which had occurred in previous lives. I was a better yogi in previous lives than I am in this life. Which is interesting. Basically, I'm saying that I agree, progress is non-linear.
I let it go to my head though.
Do you have memories?
Yes.
I found a book in the library the other day by a man who is apparently trying to prove that if westerners can recall past lives it can really improve their happiness. Anyways. I could look it up.
BBL.
It increased my happiness!! I mean... to know directly the ramifications of Buddhadharma into wider dimensions of experience is amazing! I think it helps when trying to understand the intention of mahayana.
P
Or does a mastery of the fourth jhana necessitate a mastery of emptiness and thus imply stream-entry? Probably not..
The first when it happened (which was years ago so it's hard to describe) I thought of it as just, perfect peace and like a warmth. Then I kept going, trying harder to concentrate and then it was like pure bliss. It was so out of the realm I had thought was possible for a human to experience I couldn't sit there, when it happened I stopped and stood up like YESS.
Oh well doesn't matter.
And yet there is an entire forum dedicated to people striving for attainments while following the advice of self-exploited attainees @ Dharma Overground.
People get too caught up in this relativity vs. absolutism business. I don't think the stream-enterer who is still fully a victim of the last seven fetters and partially the first three will fail to realize that he has personally attained great spiritual advancement. Like the jhanas "not being by the numbers" so the attainments are without solid boundaries. In this respect along with the natural skepticism and doubt that follows I doubt that a stream-enterer will gloat and certainly would in an arabesquely humble act of skill circumvent such claims. However, if an arahant will admit that he is enlightened if the occasion demands such (ranging from our Gautama to the recommended and self-professed Daniel Ingram) why wouldn't a stream-enterer of greater self-identification not also follow suit?
All I can stress is that you'll know you've hit the first when you're having a quasi-body orgasm. It's just too distinct.
Voici la vérité!
Do you know if any others state the like?