What did Nichiren mean when we spoke about turning earthly desires into enlightenment?

blupisces29

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TheJourney

The ultimate is not separate from the mundane. All earthly things ARE enlightenment. Every single thing is an opportunity to be enlightened, to see the world as it really is, to learn. Do not think of anything as being lower than anything else.

blupisces29

The ultimate is not separate from the mundane. All earthly things ARE enlightenment. Every single thing is an opportunity to be enlightened, to see the world as it really is, to learn. Do not think of anything as being lower than anything else.

I'm sorry I still don't understand how this relates to what Nichiren said about desires leading to enlightenment.

TheJourney

The ultimate is not separate from the mundane. All earthly things ARE enlightenment. Every single thing is an opportunity to be enlightened, to see the world as it really is, to learn. Do not think of anything as being lower than anything else.

I'm sorry I still don't understand how this relates to what Nichiren said about desires leading to enlightenment.

Because your desire has a purpose. It is not some unimportant mundane thing. Use it for enlightenment. See the truth in it.

blupisces29

he Daishonin’s Buddhism, however, explains that both "earthly desires" and "enlightenment" are intrinsic to our lives. So any intent to deny either is itself a delusion. In this regard, the Daishonin states: "Among those who wish to become Buddhas through attempting to eradicate earthly desires and shunning the lower nine worlds, there is not one ordinary person who actually attained enlightenment. This is because Buddhahood cannot exist apart from the lower nine worlds" (Gosho Zenshu, p. 403). The Daishonin defines "earthly desires" as "the obstacles to one’s practice which arise from greed, anger, stupidity and the like" (The Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, vol. 1, p. 145). Earthly desires such as greed, anger, stupidity, arrogance and doubt have a negative influence upon our lives, causing delusion and suffering. The Daishonin teaches that since such earthly desires are ever-present, we must develop wisdom and inner strength so that they do not influence us negatively, and so that we may transform these functions into a driving force for our spiritual growth.

What is he basically saying in relation to desires=enlightenment?

zombiegirl

"On the surface, however, this concept is contradictory. Our desires often cause delusion and suffering, which are the exact opposite of wisdom and happiness. In this sense, defining desires as an obstacle to enlightenment, rather than as enlightenment, seems more reasonable. So the logical extension of this line of thought will be that we have to eliminate our desires in order to attain enlightenment. This is exactly what was taught in the monastic Theravada Buddhism, which the populist Mahayana ("Greater Vehicle") Buddhists called Hinayana ("Lesser Vehicle"). Taking this view of desires to the extreme, Theravada Buddhism taught the annihilation of self through religious austerities. In other words, as long as we have a body and mind, we will continue to suffer from our desires. So we must reduce ourselves to nothing, or so those Theravada monks thought.

The Daishonin's Buddhism, however, explains that both "earthly desires" and "enlightenment" are intrinsic to our lives. So any intent to deny either is itself a delusion. In this regard, the Daishonin states: "Among those who wish to become Buddhas through attempting to eradicate earthly desires and shunning the lower nine worlds, there is not one ordinary person who actually attained enlightenment. This is because Buddhahood cannot exist apart from the lower nine worlds" (Gosho Zenshu, p. 403). The Daishonin defines "earthly desires" as "the obstacles to one's practice which arise from greed, anger, stupidity and the like" (The Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, vol. 1, p. 145). Earthly desires such as greed, anger, stupidity, arrogance and doubt have a negative influence upon our lives, causing delusion and suffering. The Daishonin teaches that since such earthly desires are ever-present, we must develop wisdom and inner strength so that they do not influence us negatively, and so that we may transform these functions into a driving force for our spiritual growth."

from: http://www.sgi-usa.org/memberresources/resources/buddhist_concepts/bc2_earthly_desires.php

Engyo

Because we have desires, and those desires are often not met, we suffer (or experience unsatisfactoriness) (the First and Second Noble Truths). We can use our suffering (or unsatisfactoriness) as motivation to continue our practice towards awakening, or achieving enlightenment.

Because my life just plain *works* better when I practice than when I don't, I am motivated to continue my practice. The results are definitely preferable to those I receive when I do not practice.

blupisces29

Because we have desires, and those desires are often not met, we suffer (or experience unsatisfactoriness) (the First and Second Noble Truths). We can use our suffering (or unsatisfactoriness) as motivation to continue our practice towards awakening, or achieving enlightenment.

Because my life just plain *works* better when I practice than when I don't, I am motivated to continue my practice. The results are definitely preferable to those I receive when I do not practice.

So this is what desires=enlightenment means?

zombiegirl

he Daishonin’s Buddhism, however, explains that both "earthly desires" and "enlightenment" are intrinsic to our lives. So any intent to deny either is itself a delusion. In this regard, the Daishonin states: "Among those who wish to become Buddhas through attempting to eradicate earthly desires and shunning the lower nine worlds, there is not one ordinary person who actually attained enlightenment. This is because Buddhahood cannot exist apart from the lower nine worlds" (Gosho Zenshu, p. 403). The Daishonin defines "earthly desires" as "the obstacles to one’s practice which arise from greed, anger, stupidity and the like" (The Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, vol. 1, p. 145). Earthly desires such as greed, anger, stupidity, arrogance and doubt have a negative influence upon our lives, causing delusion and suffering. The Daishonin teaches that since such earthly desires are ever-present, we must develop wisdom and inner strength so that they do not influence us negatively, and so that we may transform these functions into a driving force for our spiritual growth.

What is he basically saying in relation to desires=enlightenment?

oh, you quoted the same thing, lol.

nichiren's approach was mostly to lay practitioners whom had families and the like. what he is saying is that there is no escape from earthly desires and to think so is wrong view. rather than seeking to eradicate earthly desires, we should embrace them as they will help us with our practice. as it says above, through wisdom and inner strength, these earthly desires will no longer affect us negatively and instead, we can just learn to accept them as part of life and part of the ten worlds.

about the ten worlds: http://www.sgi-uk.org/index.php/buddhism/tenworlds

you will notice in this list that even in the negative worlds, such as hell or hunger, there is a positive side. suffering can help us to develop compassion, for example.

compassionate_warrior

I think that's a strange definition of desires. Arrogance, greed, anger and stupidity aren't desires. And what about practitioners who don't experience those states? Does it mean they have nothing to work with for attaining enlightenment?

And the Theravadan approach of "reducing ourselves to nothing" seems extreme, far from the Middle Way the Buddha taught. maybe these teachings come from extremes within each school...?

blupisces29

I think that's a strange definition of desires. Arrogance, greed, anger and stupidity aren't desires. And what about practitioners who don't experience those states? Does it mean they have nothing to work with for attaining enlightenment?

And the Theravadan approach of "reducing ourselves to nothing" seems extreme, far from the Middle Way the Buddha taught. maybe these teachings come from extremes within each school...?

You make a very valid point sir.

blupisces29

I still don't understand what Engyo's answer to my question was.

Engyo

Lemme see if I can clarify.

Because I have "earthly desires", I want my life to be better than it is now. I have tried and tested the practice Nichiren taught and it does make my life better when I practice. Thus, I have motivation to continue practicing, because I want my life to be better. Because I continue to practice, I will eventually attain enlightenment.

Earthly desires ->- practicing ->- enlightenment; short form earthly desires ->- enlightenment.

Does that help clarify? I threw in some general Buddhist concepts into the first answer that SGI doesn't normally teach. If SGI has been your first exposure to Nichiren Buddhism, those terms might have been confusing to you. My apologies.

Chogetsu

Somewhere in V2 of WND, Nichiren writes something like (sorry I can't remember the exact phrase, or which Gosho):

"Enlightenment and ignorance are like two sides of one mirror, in one side we see clearly, the other we see nothing. The two sides cannot be seperated".

IronRabbit

Samsara is comprised of the unsatisfactory. Desires arise to quell the unsatisfactory. The unsatisfactory, if quelled arises again in another form. Seeing the futility of desire (wishing something or someone to be other than they are to satisfy your own needs) is the enlightenment of seeing through illusion. Using desires to awaken to inherent reality seems to be the enlightenment Nichiren points to with this simple statement. Pema Chodren teaches about shenpa in a very similar fashion. Key is recognizing desire when caught up in it and letting go. Instead of feeling disappointment at being caught up in desire - best to observe with humor like the wise old man/woman watching a child play. Maybe.

blupisces29

I'm sorry I don't understand.