Middle Way For Lay

shanyin

Hello. It has come to my attention that the Buddha taught the best path for the lay practitioner is the middle way (not from any suttra from other people). Now. I have this understanding of the middle way that it is this: between acsetism and hedonism.

If one wanted to practice the middle way as a lay practioner and they didn't know what it means what would you say, or even better, is there a suttra that one could gain understanding from?

DhammaDhatu

hi

the Buddha did not teach the middle way (between acsetism & sensuality) for laypeople

if we are a layperson, to practise the middle way is our personal choice, rather than the recommendation of the buddha

compassionate_warrior

What did the Buddha teach for laypeople, then?

DhammaDhatu

the Middle Way comes from the 1st Sermon (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta), here:

Bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be cultivated by one gone forth from the household life.

What are the two? There is devotion to indulgence of pleasure in the objects of sensual desire, which is inferior, low, vulgar, ignoble, and leads to no good; and there is devotion to self-torment, which is painful, ignoble and leads to no good.

The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. And what is that middle way? It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the middle way discovered by a Perfect One, which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and which leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html

:coffee:

compassionate_warrior

Does this answer the question, "what did he teach for laypeople"? This looks like a teaching for monks. Did he teach laypeople?

DhammaDhatu

If one wanted to practice the middle way as a lay practioner and they didn't know what it means what would you say, or even better, is there a suttra that one could gain understanding from?

hi

one answer to your question, in a contemporary manner, is found here:

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books5/Buddhadassa_Bhikkhu_Buddha_Dhamma_for_University_Students.pdf

1) Suppose we are asked,

2) “What did he teach in particular”

A) AS YOU CAN see, this is a big subject which can be answered from many different points of view. If asked this, we can say first of all that he taught us to tread the Middle Way, to be neither too strict nor too slack, to go to neither the one extreme nor the other.

On the one hand, we are to avoid the very harsh self-mortification practised in certain yoga schools, which simply creates difficulties and trouble. On the other hand, we must keep away from that way of practice which allows us sensual pleasures, which amounts to saying, “Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!” This is an extremely cynical expression appropriate for people interested only in sensual pleasures.

By contrast, the Middle Way consists, on one hand, in not creating hardships for yourself and, on the other hand, not indulging to your heart’s content in sensual pleasures. Walking the Middle Way brings about conditions which are in every way conducive to study and practice, and to success in putting an end to dukkha (suffering).

The expression “Middle Way” can be applied generally in many varied situations. It can’t lead you astray. The Middle Way consists in striking the golden mean.

Knowing causes, knowing effects, knowing oneself, knowing how much is enough, knowing the proper time, knowing individuals, knowing groups of people: these Seven Noble Virtues constitute walking the Middle Way. This is one way of answering the question.

DhammaDhatu

What did the Buddha teach for laypeople, then?

alot

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.062.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.055.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html

many other discourses, especially in the Anguttara Nikaya:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/index.html

an essential summary can be found here:
http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Contents.html

DhammaDhatu

However, there is a sutta (SN 42.12), where the Buddha is questioned on the Middle Way by a layman or 'headman' (of a village or clan, I assume). Here, the Buddha defines the Middle Way as defined above from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

But then, in order to provide a suitable teaching for the headman, the Buddha describes to the headman ten ways in which a person may induldge in sensual pleasures.

It was only the tenth way, described as follows, which the Buddha said was fully without criticism and was thus praiseworthy in four ways:

Therein, headman, the one enjoying sensual pleasures who: (1) seeks wealth lawfully, without violence; (2) makes himself happy and pleased, (3) shares it and does meritorious deeds, and (4) who uses that wealth without being tied to it, not blindly absorbed in it, seeing the danger in it, understanding the escape - he may be praised on four grounds.

So, for laypeople, who are still engaging in sensual pleasures, we can offer the above teaching as a 'middle way'.

buddhajunkie

The so-called "Middle Way" is still a pretty ascetic life.

Lay people have to practice "Middle Way Lite". Trying to teach a newb what "Middle Way" is is kinda pointless, imo, since they won't be able to appreciate the original context.

federica

"All things in Moderation. Including Moderation."

For goodness' sake, how short are your memories?
The best and most fundamental lesson in practising the Middle way is the 8Fold Path.
Understanding is in there, as is effort, and livelihood, speech and action.... watch your mind, mouth and movements. A good and emphatic nod to the 5 precepts also helps....
What more, really, does a layperson need?
Jeesh, you do all so like to complicate things!

Suttas, references, teachings, quotations.... they all come back to the same thing!

Simplify!!

It's all in there!

shanyin

Fed lol your line about complicating things gave me joy because I was going to post as much as I could about myself wanting to keep things simple but I didn't know how to articulate it...

Thanks Dhattu, I'll read the posts at the proper time.

shanyin

"Who by habit sleeps by day, and keeps late hours, is ever intoxicated, and is licentious, is not fit to lead a household life."

When the Buddha speaks about 'household life' in many suttras, is he speaking of practicing dharma in his household life? Or not?

federica

Probably.
What do you think?

formermonkJohn

as fedrica pointed out the 5 precepts. these have been indicated to me as very important thing for lay people, noting the buddha put much higher expectations on monks, although any devout lay person can follow all or most of the rules for monks if they so desire without actually wearing robes.

Ada_B

It seems that possibly some of you are over-thinking this? Live a virtuous life, show kindness to those around you, practice mindfulness and remember that everything is temporary. There. Where's the problem?

zenff

Simplify!!

Yes, I wish to apply for membership of the simplify-movement.

I’d like to quote the famous (and short) Nike-Sutra in which the Buddha stated: “Just do it!”

Mountains

Jeesh, you do all so like to complicate things!

Ah good... so that's not just *my* perception then! Whew...

Simplify!!

Yippee!! That's my new byword. Less is more! Eschew obfuscation!

Spaceless

All path is middle way unless otherwise stated by non-middle way beings.