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Nirvana or pali="nibbana" is extinction, not a place, not a component of reality in the conventional sense. Nibbana specifically is the extinction of the craving which leads to the continuation of being; i.e. "i am" as a substantive reality. Samsara is a condition, the aggregate cause and effect universe supported by dependently originated phenomena as they are clung to by beings wandering on fettered by craving (for existence or non existence) Nirodha translated mostly as cessation, as in the third feature of Noble Truth, is the model of that ultimate cessation from suffering; Nirvana Nibbana. The Buddhist training of gradual experience and insight into cessation leads to nibbana, as Mahayanists might say; "emptiness" which yes, is just a word, but conveys the understanding that with the end of craving and suffering and "i" making no longer are found.
"then you are free to engage in the pleasures of samsara"
pleasure followed by suffering perhaps... in the end, there's no lasting pleasure in samsara.
Yes, but when a being realises enlightenment then they are no longer in samsara, co-dependent origination is no longer seen to exist (of course those that follow Je Tsongkapa would disagree, they say that realisation of co-dependent origination is enlightenment).
As to the OP, I suspect pleasure would still occur, yet it wouldn't be pleasure, it just is. And there is no-one experiencing these experiences, the experiences just are. If there are any thoughts on the subject at hand there would be nobody thinking them, they would just occur. And when they subside there was never anyone clinging to them so they just go. What is inherently pleasurable about pleasure? Its merely a conceptual wrapping, a concealer of reality, a false duality. So, I guess experiencing pleasure shows that the being in question is not there yet (are we there yet!), they still have veils (foes) to destroy.
I agree with that, @Whoknows. Too many people equate "suffering" with "pain", and so their opposite to suffering is pleasure. They think of enlightenment as being free from pain and enjoying pleasure. And yet... the actual opposite of suffering is "non-suffering". The enlightened mind is beyond both pleasure and pain, self and other, a state of non-clinging that does not crave or attach to sense impressions or thoughts.
Once you lose the concept of separate self, what is holding you back? NOTHING. That's my point.
The other nine fetters possibly?
If you do not maintain notions of a separate self, and the buddha has been awakened, how can you be held back? You are not a self separate from the buddha. If enlightenment exists, it exists in no individual, and is therefore a part of the essence of all. You are not a separate self from the buddha. Therefore there is nothing holding you back.
Delusions, karma. Otherwise we'd all be enlightened beings right now in our conventional reality, and not just in the ultimate sense.
Enlightenment is the process. The unenlightened are in the process of enlightenment. The buddha said he would lead all beings to enlightenment. He is doing that right now. The process of enlightenment is always happening.
There is always pleasure, and karma is always forming around pleasure and pain. But Buddhist practice leads to a shift in the relationship to the karma.
Enlightenment is no thing to be reached. It is simply the process. We're all in the process.
Hi LH, I don't really agree with this but I see no harm in this idea. Yet in some ways this is probably correct like: when the other shore is found the seeker has gone. So in this respect there is no destination. However, if the seeker believes in a goal then their effort will be greater to one who does not. It depends on where they are on the journey, the rules change as the seeker does. One who rejoices in the signless would not see enlightenment as a process, as the process just becomes another sign.
Never the less, the only thing that would prevent further progression is to think that the other shore's been found. Motivation is everything, it is very important to establish a strong motivation before the self is too greatly transcended. Otherwise the really sticky, subtle defilements remain and are not addressed, they become invisible. Look for anything that causes offence, dislike, or like, they are what you need to progress. Even if they are really subtle like a very slight mental formation with the character of unease or discordance, they will be most evident in post meditation. The more peaceful you are the harder you need to route out defilements. That's why the path of a Bodhisattva is so powerful. Most people really don't want to be Bodhisattva, but to someone living in peace the act of helping others is just that extra challenge required to move the being further in the journey. Its constantly challenging and even though the objects of compassion are illusionary, if you are serious, you will do what's necessary for their benefit.
Of course I'm not saying this is relevant to anyone. Good luck to you all in your meditation and live well!
@Whoknows, I like the way you explained that. One can come to their own peace and think that this is the end, failing to recognize that there is further effort to make toward truly reaching out and becoming one with others; there is always more suffering to be overcome.
Once perfection is accepted and seen, there is neither nirvana nor samsara, these are labels. And it does not mean that you have attained full enlightenment, but just entering the door of acknowledging beings' true nature of enlightenment. For complete perfection, you ought to harness it until total emergence of calmness.
Comments
Samsara is a condition, the aggregate cause and effect universe supported by dependently originated phenomena as they are clung to by beings wandering on fettered by craving (for existence or non existence) Nirodha translated mostly as cessation, as in the third feature of Noble Truth, is the model of that ultimate cessation from suffering; Nirvana Nibbana. The Buddhist training of gradual experience and insight into cessation leads to nibbana, as Mahayanists might say; "emptiness" which yes, is just a word, but conveys the understanding that with the end of craving and suffering and "i" making no longer are found.
As to the OP, I suspect pleasure would still occur, yet it wouldn't be pleasure, it just is. And there is no-one experiencing these experiences, the experiences just are. If there are any thoughts on the subject at hand there would be nobody thinking them, they would just occur. And when they subside there was never anyone clinging to them so they just go. What is inherently pleasurable about pleasure? Its merely a conceptual wrapping, a concealer of reality, a false duality. So, I guess experiencing pleasure shows that the being in question is not there yet (are we there yet!), they still have veils (foes) to destroy.
Cheers, WK
The other nine fetters possibly?
Never the less, the only thing that would prevent further progression is to think that the other shore's been found. Motivation is everything, it is very important to establish a strong motivation before the self is too greatly transcended. Otherwise the really sticky, subtle defilements remain and are not addressed, they become invisible. Look for anything that causes offence, dislike, or like, they are what you need to progress. Even if they are really subtle like a very slight mental formation with the character of unease or discordance, they will be most evident in post meditation. The more peaceful you are the harder you need to route out defilements. That's why the path of a Bodhisattva is so powerful. Most people really don't want to be Bodhisattva, but to someone living in peace the act of helping others is just that extra challenge required to move the being further in the journey. Its constantly challenging and even though the objects of compassion are illusionary, if you are serious, you will do what's necessary for their benefit.
Of course I'm not saying this is relevant to anyone. Good luck to you all in your meditation and live well!
Cheers, WK
The practice of these master venerables are good examples of harnessing their truth :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guang_Qin
Highlights of the 13 Pure Land Patriarchs
http://thomehfang.com/kumarajiva/13Patriarchs/13Patriarchs_20Nov2003.htm
Zen sixth Patriarch Hui Neng
:cool: