Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
YogaMama,
My partner and I are going to go see it today. It will most likely go to art theaters. America isn't ready for 2 men being sexually intimate on film yet. I was thinking the other night how I have seen many love scenes between a man and a woman in a film. This came up because on www.rottentomatoes.com this guy wrote how disgusted he was about seeing two men having sex on screen. Granted, he may be straight, but he just went off about it and reduced the film to the "gay cowboy movie". It's too bad he couldn't see past a few scenes to see what the movie was really saying. Will let you know more later.
Reverend Genryu,
Thank you for that bit of wisdom. I guess it will take time as I am just a novice to all of this. I need to continue to sit and just let my thoughts arise and not get involved with them. Thank you for your presence on the board. You might not post often, but it always shows real thought about the topic.
In a rather unlike me highly childish moment... it was some time ago and I knew it was wrong at the time but it was one of those times when well, everybody has lost control at some point.
My Uncle (by marriage, and thankfully no longer) was very homophobic. He actually believed you could "catch gay". So when my best friend Josh was living here for a little while, he actually threatened my Aunt with taking away her daughter because the presense of my gay friend would make her a lesbian.
Now: How him looking through her girly teen magazines with her picking out guys would make her like girls I have no clue... but he really did believe this.
He was actually using the guy across the street to keep tabs on when Josh was here, and it got so bad we had to sneak him out the back door when my Uncle came over. (This was when my Aunt and he were seperated, but not yet divorced).
Finally one day, I had had enough. I took a tissue and walked out to his car while he was here, dropped it in his lap and said: "You're gay now. Josh sneezed on that."
My Aunt chewed me out a bit, but after that my Uncle left us alone about Josh.
Since we are on the subject of homosexuality....why the heck aren't any of the theaters near me playing the movie "Brokeback Mountain"??? Has anyone seen it yet? I am dying to see it, but since I live in the ultra-conservative Midwest, I doubt I will get to see it in the theaters. Gosh, I sure miss Phoenix!!!
The reason is that it only opened in Los Angeles and New York the first weekend. It will make it to local theaters starting next weekend. I also hope it makes it to Sedona, which only has one theater (used to have three, but...) with six screens, so sometimes the good-but-not-popular gems never make it here. I love Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger and can't wait to see them together in this.
On the anger issue, Jerbear, it is difficult to maintain one's calm when the fundamentalists come around preaching their vile hate and intolerance. However, it is important to remember that they are just sentient beings like us, trying to find happiness and not knowing how. Therefore they are worthy of our compassion. It might also be useful to remember (and it's certainly something I have to remind myself of constantly) that if there were no hatred and intolerance in your mindstream, then you wouldn't be experiencing it from the fundies (is that like the Sunday fundies?). External reality is, after all, simply a reflection of our own minds. If we're at peace and have cleaned up our poisons, then we're not going to experience them in the external world either. A difficult concept to get, but worth contemplating.
Buddhafoot,
In time, my good man. I would like to be there, but I'm not. After many years of being maltreated and put down for something I have no control over, there is a lot of anger inside. I understand where the fundies are coming from being a former one. But it does not excuse my behavior or theirs. I will continue to write my congressman and senators and vote. It's kind of hard to show love and compassion to people who hate you and want to see you "burn in hell" for your crimes against nature (their opinion, not mine). I do my best not to get around them these days, but when something comes up in the news my anger is restirred. I am starting to try and apply the things I'm reading and discussing on this board. So I'm sure it will get around to me putting my anger at the fundies to rest.
Actually, I should be thankful to the fundies. If it weren't for them, I may never have checked out Buddhism. I needed something I could question as it isn't allowed to any real depths in fundyism. Then when I read that the Buddha welcomed questioning and encouraged it, my interest was piqued. I wanted something more and the Buddha's teachings that I've read so far has met that need. We shal see what happens. You may get a pm from me over this, bud. A lot is going in my head as I type this and don't want to bore everyone with it.
Actually, I should be thankful to the fundies. If it weren't for them, I may never have checked out Buddhism.
As one of my teachers (Ven. Gyaltrul Rinpoche) says: "Pray for adversity". And as the Dalai Lama has said on many occasions, his greatest teacher in this life has been the Chinese.
It is only through adversity that we have the opportunity to grow. Who has any impetus to change when everything is fine and dandy?
I wasn't wanting to make it sound like "it's all up to you. just love them and show compassion!" because it's hard to show compassion when someone is screaming in your face that they want to kill you.
Mostly my point was trying to look at it in the sense, that: these people are not you. who knows what ignorance or fear they are dealing with. even though the situation is ugly, don't dwell on these sorts of happenings and don't let it rob your peace.
The Buddha never spoke either for or against this in the whole of the Tipitaka. It is commonly held that as long as said relationship follows the precept it is fine. Homosexuality was widespread in the Buddha's time, and is still part of the Hindu society. So if the Buddha had thought something of the topic he would have taught so. Yet he did not, he taught love, compassion, and acceptance
At last some hope from Dhammasaavaka, if there is no teaching directly from Buddha on homosexuality, than why has the HHDL put a slant on this issue?
I am really concerned about this, I have found the path and am delighted to be here, but this difficulty around sexuality which seems to permiate all religions, drives me NUTS! Why doesn't HHDL just teach a bit more compassionatly on the subject of homosexuality?. It appears to me that HH is an extrodinarialy intelligent man and would be completly aware of the affects ANYTHING he says has on people, ripples in water, keep spreading.
The old sixties saying of "make love not war" I am not being obtuse, but really as buddhists couldn't we espouse this belief? Does it really does it matter who kisses who where, or who has intercourse with whom and where? Surely we could try and believe the values of love. It has to hold true that real homosexual love is every bit as beautiful as hetrosexual love?
Rev suggested in his piece that desire is just another form of attachement! I agree with this, but as we are not too far down the path, true desire and love is one of the better attachements to have. Part of the buddhist journey must be to love each other, we may realise that human love is an attatchement that someday, maybe in many lifetimes to come, also let go of. However, real love, not just sex for sex sake, be it Female and Male, Male and Male, Female and Female can remind us of the potential beauty within all human beings. Maybe we have to know how to really love one sentient being before we can try and love all?
I only have one gay friend, (THAT I KNOW OF) and to be honest with you, the dynamics of his sex life would be something that wouldn't necessairly appeal to me, in fact thinking about it, I could get a bit quesy about it. But thats not a gay thing .... I don't like thinking about the gorey details of any of my friends love lives or family for that matter.
I just know my friend, my friend is a very decent an honorable man, who does his best on a day to day basis to not hurt anyone. He gives to charity, he works hard, he employs people and trys to treat them well, he respects his parents and family and is an all round decent person who also makes mistakes from time to time, but does his best not to, so who he likes to kiss or have sex with, DOES THAT REALLY MATTER?
Does that make him less of a valid human being? Because when we say that homosexuality is wrong or might be wrong or is a bit "iffy" that that what your saying, that my friend, is not as good and decent a person as another who just happens to have sex with women? For all that is good and true in this world that cannot be right?
I must say, to sit by, in any religion and just say that it is a .... fill in what ever excuse you feel is appropriate .... that allows the elders of the church, religion, faith to be negative in any way about homosexuality, it wrong. I do believe that HHDL is a far more intelligent, sensitive, wise person than I am, he also will forget more about the path than I would ever hope to remember, but he is WRONG when he does not stand up for homosexuals and completly embrace them into our religion. I must say for one I am very dissapointed and hurt over this. Why cant people just live and let live, why do they have to express a negative opinion on something as wonderful and complicated as love. Even if it is just another attachement.
Well I did promise a bit of a rant ... that was it!!! Hope you dont mind!
I cannot answer for the HHDL, Im sorry. Also desire and love are two different things. People always have a habit of combining them. In truth if you are with someone, you do not have to 'desire' them. Not by the definition of desire. You only actually desire something you do not have. So when you are with someone you have no need to desire them. Desire is just a commonly misinterpretted word.
Love is not a fetter. On the contrary love can be a wonderful instrument in Buddhism.
Buddhism does not teach that Homosexuality is wrong. The Dalai Lama spoke from a viewpoint of Tibetan culture, not from a Buddhist perspective. It's easy to forget sometimes that he is human. After meeting with Gay Buddhists, the Dalai Lama realized that he had been mistaken in saying what he said as he did.
As to love, it is not seen as an attachment in Buddhism, desire is not to be got rid of and not all desire is seen as unhealthy. The point is to develop insight into the process of craving, not to repress legitimate and healthy aspects of ourselves. Part of the problem is that Westerners read translations of Buddhist texts, and not realizing that often they are highly condensed teachings, given in a particular context, in regard to specific situations, and that these sometimes do not accurately translate into English fully, mistake some teachings as blanket approaches to issues such as desire.
You'll often recognise this for example when someone will post a whole page of a translation of the one of the Suttas that seems to say that we should totally crush any desire. And Westerners are not alone in this. Indeed some traditions have at times become little more than custodians of dead words, arguing endlessly about definitions and nuances of language, and forgetting both the context of those teachings and that Buddhism has continued to this time not because it has been preserved as some sort of intellectual museum piece, but because it comes from the direct experience of Enlightenment. It is that experience that is at the heart of Buddhism, not any description of the teachings, not the Vinaya, not the Suttas.
Both Dhaamasaavaka (boy, I'll never learn how to spell that one!) and Genryu make excellent points, Grainne. I would say don't worry about what HHDL said or didn't say and just keep on being you. BTW, I also am a member of the "lavender sangha", and I am a fully ordained monk in the Tibetan (Nyingma) tradition, ordained by HH Penor Rinpoche himself, so I guess it doesn't make a big difference, does it!! And I would agree with Genryu that it does seem to be more of a Tibetan cultural thing than a doctrinal thing, or perhaps an Asian cultural thing as gays in Asia are generally either not considered at all as if they don't exist or outright condemned. When my teacher first allowed gays and lesbians to become ordained, there were some Tibetan lamas who said, "Oh, no, you can't ordain those people! They have no morals!" Her response was, "Yes, they do, and I'm going to prove it!"
I think that is the special gift that we who are g/l/b/t practitioners can offer our brothers and sisters who have suffered at the hands of intolerance and lack of compassion for their whole lives. We can show them that it is possible to live a moral life and be accepted for who we are without apologies, because I think that down deep that's what most of us really want. We just haven't found the opportunity to do it in our traditional religions, which is a real tragedy. I'm sure Jesus would not have turned a gay man or a lesbian woman away. Too bad his alleged disciples pay no attention to what He taught!
Palzang
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2005
Labels, labels, labels..... all are discarded when we die.... It doesn't matter what a person's persuasion is, what sex they are, what colour they are, to which religion they adhere, they simply....are.
See all as equal - no more, no less no different to you.
Well Palzang,
As another member of the "lavender sangha", good for you! I could never be a monk though. I would miss my partner too much.
Grainne,
I understand where you are coming from, but as Rev. Genryu and DS have pointed out, it is for the individual to decide. I live a decent life to the best of my ability. That always can be improved upon via the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, that has nothing to do with my homosexuality, but everything to do with me being a sentient being. I have no desire to stop practicing Buddhism because of what HHDL says. He has the right to his opinions. Initially, I was quite ticked off by it. Hopefully, HHDL will read more on the subject and make an official statement. If not, it won't stop me from practicing.
You're friend is quite lucky to have you on his side.
BF,
I let go of it a little more every day. Hopefully, one day I will be able to see them as the sick, suffering souls that they are. Most of them think they are acting in a loving manner. Members of my family have even told me I would be going to hell for being gay. I've told them they have the right to their own opinion and the right to keep it to themselves. They were furious when I told them I started meditating. I haven't even told them I'm practicing Buddhism. A gay Buddhist? OH MY, I will get a special place in hell for that. I hope my asbestos waterskis work there. Just kidding. I don't know what happens when we die, so I plan on making the best of the time I get.
Fruit of the Tomb? Where do you get that brand? Or does it just come in strips and you have someone apply them when you die?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2005
You see??? YOU SEE?? You see what happens when a monk makes jokes!!?? It's wrong, I tell you! It goes against the grain! It's not right!! it's like... it's like... Well....., gosh, it's like a clown - saying mass at the vatican....!!
You see??? YOU SEE?? You see what happens when a monk makes jokes!!?? It's wrong, I tell you! It goes against the grain! It's not right!! it's like... it's like... Well....., gosh, it's like a clown - saying mass at the vatican....!!
Oh, hang on......
:PWNED:
*cough* Anyway. This thread is interesting. I'll keep it in mind when I join a temple...someday...eventually...
Actually I must confess that that joke is not mine. I first heard it one evening long ago when I was watching "Masada" with a friend of mine and her family. When the Israelis were sewing their shrouds before committing suicide rather than surrender to the Romans, her 10 year old son said, "Oh, must be fruit of the tomb!" I thought I was going to die laughing! Definitely one of the best spontaneous jokes I've ever heard...
Thanks all ... Youve all given me alot to think about .... Both the intellectual and theroy of Buddhism and but also from people like Palzang and Jerbear who thought me about the day to day realities of homosexuality within Buddhisim. And as usual I don't know half as much as I like to think I do and Im not have as compassionate as I like to pretend.
Ah well, As I always say "I have so much to learn" and at least I am not cross with the Buddhists anymore !!!! (HA HA)
The gay thing is very intersting. Wether a peson is gay or not should not matter, thats what I think. There is, in every relgion, some type of church or place that gays can go. Even in a Christian church or Jewish... place. (don't know how it spell it)
one person wrote
Everyone's structure of sexual desire is unique, and when we leave social engineering considerations behind, there is no warrant for setting one structure of desire above the rest, so long as all can be lived out within the spirit of the precepts.
Every person is different in what they are attrached to.
Well, Grainne, if Buddhism is anything, it's a process. We start where we're at and go on from there. It doesn't matter where you start; just starting is the important thing. I mean, they don't call it "practice" for nothing!
Well, I am saddened that there is any question of buddhism accepting gay love/ sexual practices. Naivety? Perhaps.
That the Dalai Lama should say that oral, anal and masturbatory rapports are frowned upon is not something I had come across.
It proves at least the HH the DL is a person. I am also reassured that you guys added the social context - something we are all conditioned by in our practices and reactions to things.
Sex is made so complicated by almost everyone. If half of these religions could let people just be attracted to someone, have sex and get it out of their system I think we'd have a lot less actual deviance. All that unhelpful, controlling guilt is so wrong and unnatural.
We are animals. If we repress our emotions and attraction it goes 'underground' and becomes something dark, sinister and unhealthy (again, in my opinion) and always, ALWAYS resurfaces in some other form.
So I say get it out of your system and then go put the kettle on
As this old thread has been bumped, I thought I would add (again?) my joy that HHDL gives us example: it is OK to change your view when you realise that the old one is wrong.
The best example of this is our attitude to slavery. When, for example, Christians tell me that this or that is unchangeable (men-only priesthood or homophobia OK, etc.), I point out that the churches changed their minds and attitudes towards slavery so why not any other aspect of human behaviour.
Comments
Just to be a smart aleck to the fundies, let me say a hearty AMEN Rev. Genryu.
Thank you.
My partner and I are going to go see it today. It will most likely go to art theaters. America isn't ready for 2 men being sexually intimate on film yet. I was thinking the other night how I have seen many love scenes between a man and a woman in a film. This came up because on www.rottentomatoes.com this guy wrote how disgusted he was about seeing two men having sex on screen. Granted, he may be straight, but he just went off about it and reduced the film to the "gay cowboy movie". It's too bad he couldn't see past a few scenes to see what the movie was really saying. Will let you know more later.
Thank you for that bit of wisdom. I guess it will take time as I am just a novice to all of this. I need to continue to sit and just let my thoughts arise and not get involved with them. Thank you for your presence on the board. You might not post often, but it always shows real thought about the topic.
My Uncle (by marriage, and thankfully no longer) was very homophobic. He actually believed you could "catch gay". So when my best friend Josh was living here for a little while, he actually threatened my Aunt with taking away her daughter because the presense of my gay friend would make her a lesbian.
Now: How him looking through her girly teen magazines with her picking out guys would make her like girls I have no clue... but he really did believe this.
He was actually using the guy across the street to keep tabs on when Josh was here, and it got so bad we had to sneak him out the back door when my Uncle came over. (This was when my Aunt and he were seperated, but not yet divorced).
Finally one day, I had had enough. I took a tissue and walked out to his car while he was here, dropped it in his lap and said: "You're gay now. Josh sneezed on that."
My Aunt chewed me out a bit, but after that my Uncle left us alone about Josh.
The reason is that it only opened in Los Angeles and New York the first weekend. It will make it to local theaters starting next weekend. I also hope it makes it to Sedona, which only has one theater (used to have three, but...) with six screens, so sometimes the good-but-not-popular gems never make it here. I love Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger and can't wait to see them together in this.
On the anger issue, Jerbear, it is difficult to maintain one's calm when the fundamentalists come around preaching their vile hate and intolerance. However, it is important to remember that they are just sentient beings like us, trying to find happiness and not knowing how. Therefore they are worthy of our compassion. It might also be useful to remember (and it's certainly something I have to remind myself of constantly) that if there were no hatred and intolerance in your mindstream, then you wouldn't be experiencing it from the fundies (is that like the Sunday fundies?). External reality is, after all, simply a reflection of our own minds. If we're at peace and have cleaned up our poisons, then we're not going to experience them in the external world either. A difficult concept to get, but worth contemplating.
Palzang
In time, my good man. I would like to be there, but I'm not. After many years of being maltreated and put down for something I have no control over, there is a lot of anger inside. I understand where the fundies are coming from being a former one. But it does not excuse my behavior or theirs. I will continue to write my congressman and senators and vote. It's kind of hard to show love and compassion to people who hate you and want to see you "burn in hell" for your crimes against nature (their opinion, not mine). I do my best not to get around them these days, but when something comes up in the news my anger is restirred. I am starting to try and apply the things I'm reading and discussing on this board. So I'm sure it will get around to me putting my anger at the fundies to rest.
Actually, I should be thankful to the fundies. If it weren't for them, I may never have checked out Buddhism. I needed something I could question as it isn't allowed to any real depths in fundyism. Then when I read that the Buddha welcomed questioning and encouraged it, my interest was piqued. I wanted something more and the Buddha's teachings that I've read so far has met that need. We shal see what happens. You may get a pm from me over this, bud. A lot is going in my head as I type this and don't want to bore everyone with it.
As one of my teachers (Ven. Gyaltrul Rinpoche) says: "Pray for adversity". And as the Dalai Lama has said on many occasions, his greatest teacher in this life has been the Chinese.
It is only through adversity that we have the opportunity to grow. Who has any impetus to change when everything is fine and dandy?
Palzang
I wasn't wanting to make it sound like "it's all up to you. just love them and show compassion!" because it's hard to show compassion when someone is screaming in your face that they want to kill you.
Mostly my point was trying to look at it in the sense, that: these people are not you. who knows what ignorance or fear they are dealing with. even though the situation is ugly, don't dwell on these sorts of happenings and don't let it rob your peace.
-bf
I am really concerned about this, I have found the path and am delighted to be here, but this difficulty around sexuality which seems to permiate all religions, drives me NUTS! Why doesn't HHDL just teach a bit more compassionatly on the subject of homosexuality?. It appears to me that HH is an extrodinarialy intelligent man and would be completly aware of the affects ANYTHING he says has on people, ripples in water, keep spreading.
The old sixties saying of "make love not war" I am not being obtuse, but really as buddhists couldn't we espouse this belief? Does it really does it matter who kisses who where, or who has intercourse with whom and where? Surely we could try and believe the values of love. It has to hold true that real homosexual love is every bit as beautiful as hetrosexual love?
Rev suggested in his piece that desire is just another form of attachement! I agree with this, but as we are not too far down the path, true desire and love is one of the better attachements to have. Part of the buddhist journey must be to love each other, we may realise that human love is an attatchement that someday, maybe in many lifetimes to come, also let go of. However, real love, not just sex for sex sake, be it Female and Male, Male and Male, Female and Female can remind us of the potential beauty within all human beings. Maybe we have to know how to really love one sentient being before we can try and love all?
I only have one gay friend, (THAT I KNOW OF) and to be honest with you, the dynamics of his sex life would be something that wouldn't necessairly appeal to me, in fact thinking about it, I could get a bit quesy about it. But thats not a gay thing .... I don't like thinking about the gorey details of any of my friends love lives or family for that matter.
I just know my friend, my friend is a very decent an honorable man, who does his best on a day to day basis to not hurt anyone. He gives to charity, he works hard, he employs people and trys to treat them well, he respects his parents and family and is an all round decent person who also makes mistakes from time to time, but does his best not to, so who he likes to kiss or have sex with, DOES THAT REALLY MATTER?
Does that make him less of a valid human being? Because when we say that homosexuality is wrong or might be wrong or is a bit "iffy" that that what your saying, that my friend, is not as good and decent a person as another who just happens to have sex with women? For all that is good and true in this world that cannot be right?
I must say, to sit by, in any religion and just say that it is a .... fill in what ever excuse you feel is appropriate .... that allows the elders of the church, religion, faith to be negative in any way about homosexuality, it wrong. I do believe that HHDL is a far more intelligent, sensitive, wise person than I am, he also will forget more about the path than I would ever hope to remember, but he is WRONG when he does not stand up for homosexuals and completly embrace them into our religion. I must say for one I am very dissapointed and hurt over this. Why cant people just live and let live, why do they have to express a negative opinion on something as wonderful and complicated as love. Even if it is just another attachement.
Well I did promise a bit of a rant ... that was it!!! Hope you dont mind!
Love is not a fetter. On the contrary love can be a wonderful instrument in Buddhism.
As to love, it is not seen as an attachment in Buddhism, desire is not to be got rid of and not all desire is seen as unhealthy. The point is to develop insight into the process of craving, not to repress legitimate and healthy aspects of ourselves. Part of the problem is that Westerners read translations of Buddhist texts, and not realizing that often they are highly condensed teachings, given in a particular context, in regard to specific situations, and that these sometimes do not accurately translate into English fully, mistake some teachings as blanket approaches to issues such as desire.
You'll often recognise this for example when someone will post a whole page of a translation of the one of the Suttas that seems to say that we should totally crush any desire. And Westerners are not alone in this. Indeed some traditions have at times become little more than custodians of dead words, arguing endlessly about definitions and nuances of language, and forgetting both the context of those teachings and that Buddhism has continued to this time not because it has been preserved as some sort of intellectual museum piece, but because it comes from the direct experience of Enlightenment. It is that experience that is at the heart of Buddhism, not any description of the teachings, not the Vinaya, not the Suttas.
I think that is the special gift that we who are g/l/b/t practitioners can offer our brothers and sisters who have suffered at the hands of intolerance and lack of compassion for their whole lives. We can show them that it is possible to live a moral life and be accepted for who we are without apologies, because I think that down deep that's what most of us really want. We just haven't found the opportunity to do it in our traditional religions, which is a real tragedy. I'm sure Jesus would not have turned a gay man or a lesbian woman away. Too bad his alleged disciples pay no attention to what He taught!
Palzang
See all as equal - no more, no less no different to you.
Or is that too simple?
As another member of the "lavender sangha", good for you! I could never be a monk though. I would miss my partner too much.
Grainne,
I understand where you are coming from, but as Rev. Genryu and DS have pointed out, it is for the individual to decide. I live a decent life to the best of my ability. That always can be improved upon via the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, that has nothing to do with my homosexuality, but everything to do with me being a sentient being. I have no desire to stop practicing Buddhism because of what HHDL says. He has the right to his opinions. Initially, I was quite ticked off by it. Hopefully, HHDL will read more on the subject and make an official statement. If not, it won't stop me from practicing.
You're friend is quite lucky to have you on his side.
I let go of it a little more every day. Hopefully, one day I will be able to see them as the sick, suffering souls that they are. Most of them think they are acting in a loving manner. Members of my family have even told me I would be going to hell for being gay. I've told them they have the right to their own opinion and the right to keep it to themselves. They were furious when I told them I started meditating. I haven't even told them I'm practicing Buddhism. A gay Buddhist? OH MY, I will get a special place in hell for that. I hope my asbestos waterskis work there. Just kidding. I don't know what happens when we die, so I plan on making the best of the time I get.
Fede: Last time I died, I did have one label that stuck. It was from the underwear I was buried in - Fruit of the Tomb! Sorry... :crazy:
Palzang
-bf
Like I've always said...
A gay buddhist is a happy buddhist.
-bf
Oh, hang on......
*cough* Anyway. This thread is interesting. I'll keep it in mind when I join a temple...someday...eventually...
Palzang
Ah well, As I always say "I have so much to learn" and at least I am not cross with the Buddhists anymore !!!! (HA HA)
Thanks, I mean it!
one person wrote
Everyone's structure of sexual desire is unique, and when we leave social engineering considerations behind, there is no warrant for setting one structure of desire above the rest, so long as all can be lived out within the spirit of the precepts.
Every person is different in what they are attrached to.
Best wishes!
Palzang
That the Dalai Lama should say that oral, anal and masturbatory rapports are frowned upon is not something I had come across.
It proves at least the HH the DL is a person. I am also reassured that you guys added the social context - something we are all conditioned by in our practices and reactions to things.
Sex is made so complicated by almost everyone. If half of these religions could let people just be attracted to someone, have sex and get it out of their system I think we'd have a lot less actual deviance. All that unhelpful, controlling guilt is so wrong and unnatural.
We are animals. If we repress our emotions and attraction it goes 'underground' and becomes something dark, sinister and unhealthy (again, in my opinion) and always, ALWAYS resurfaces in some other form.
So I say get it out of your system and then go put the kettle on
The best example of this is our attitude to slavery. When, for example, Christians tell me that this or that is unchangeable (men-only priesthood or homophobia OK, etc.), I point out that the churches changed their minds and attitudes towards slavery so why not any other aspect of human behaviour.