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How about we distinguish between whether or not someone has a chance. Don't keep me alive the little bit longer being hooked to machines will give me, when I'm going to die anyway. There is a world of difference between pulling the plug on someone who is alive solely by machine alone, and pulling the plug on someone who has a chance of some sort of real life.
Many decades ago, when I was a veterinary nurse, our decisions were based on quality of life, not just preserving life for the sake of it.
In many cases we could have kept a pet hanging on for a few more months but to be perfectly honest, with a quality of life that would have been worthless both for the animal and the owners - in these cases we always advised euthanasia (incidentally losing money for ourselves - cost of a lethal shot against months of expensive treatment).
I remember having a conversation with the vet for whom I worked and he said - I hope by the time I get to that age, we will have got enlightened enough to treat our fellow man as well as we treat our animals and that I will be able to choose the time of my going, peacefully, in dignity and with my family around me.
Jason is quite right that the precepts are guidelines, not commandments written in stone. Life is not always so black and white. But it is useful, I think, to consider such things before one actually encounters them. Such as the prospect of lying brain dead in a hospital for months (or even years) whilst being kept "alive" by machines. Pulling the plug in such a circumstance is letting nature take its course, imho. You are not purposely killing someone, only removing the artificial devices that keep one technically alive (although brain death is considered a sign of death, despite the fact that the heart may keep beating and the lungs keep breathing). After that the person will either live or not live depending on their karma and their merit. So I see no fault on the part of the person pulling the plug. Quite the opposite in fact. I think it would be meritorious.
Euthanasia, on the other hand, which I consider to be the willful termination of someone's life, no matter the motivation, is not something I would recommend, however, as this involves the karma of killing a human being and thus removing any possibility of them attaining enlightenment in that life. That is indeed a heavy karma to accrue. But again, life is never that black and white. Take the example of a covert patrol behind enemy lines in wartime. Suppose one of the team is severely wounded, too wounded to continue on, but if left behind he could be captured and forced to reveal information that would cost many lives. Would you leave him behind to suffer his fate (and possibly cost many soldiers their lives as well), or would you kill him, taking on that particular karma for the benefit of others?
I wouldn't be able to bring myself to kill that wounded member of the team, Palzang, but I don't know what the truly skillful answer to that question would be.
I do know, however, that in case of major illness or injury, it will be stipulated in my living will that I not be put on life sustaining machinery like an artificial respirator. If I can't breathe on my own I want to die a normal death. So there will be no plug pulling for my family to deal with.
I do know, however, that in case of major illness or injury, it will be stipulated in my living will that I not be put on life sustaining machinery like an artificial respirator. If I can't breathe on my own I want to die a normal death. So there will be no plug pulling for my family to deal with.
Actually not being put on an artificial respirator would be the same as "pulling the plug" the way I define it because if you didn't stipulate it in your living will, you can bet that the docs would hook you up. So it's the same thing really, the wish not to be kept alive artificially.
Having been on a ventilator, there are some good points to it. It gave my lungs and body time to heal from a septic shock that would have killed me otherwise. I had a very good chance of surviving and did so. I have a living will/durable power of attorney for health care that covers my wishes in the case of brain death or incurable illness. It lets people know what Iwant in those situations. A very good case for having these documents. Your family won't have to worry about what you want.
The big problems that I have seen arise when someone has not made their wishes known. This makes for undue suffering for all involved. Doctors and nurses carefully think about what action to take or suggest. I would like everyone to know we don't automatically go 'Pull the plug' and think nothing of it. That is someone's loved one in the bed and deserves respect. There are times that we don't agree with the family's decision, but we abide by it. It's difficult when no one agrees with what the course of action should be. One of the most helpless feelings as a health care provider I've faced is the family wishing that their loved one would pass but because of their religious beliefs should continue with everything. I've had families look to me and wish the medical team would not try as hard to resuscitate their loved one when their religion conflicts with what their loved one's passing, even though the person is considered "full code". That puts one in a very sticky situation. It was those kind of situations that got me out of ICU. I didn't want to make decisions for anyone but myself.
It is never an easy decision to stop life support. Be kind to your loved ones and decide for them before they have to decide for you.
But I think, Elohim, we will rather not interpret karma as good, or bad karma, but see it merely as but causations; seeds to an effect - of skill or not of skill. As such, karma isn't a debt to be repaid and yes, euthanasia would be less scary.
I agree that this is a better way of looking at it. And, interestingly enough, the Buddha compared kamma to the field, consciousness to the seed, and craving to the moisture in regard to beings being established in a new realm of existence (link).
Euthanasia, on the other hand, which I consider to be the willful termination of someone's life, no matter the motivation, is not something I would recommend, however, as this involves the karma of killing a human being and thus removing any possibility of them attaining enlightenment in that life.
I think that's a good point. While I strongly believe that individuals should have the right to do what they want with their own bodies, as well as support a person's right to end their own life when they are deemed to be sober and of sound mind, I agree with you that the willful termination of someone's life, no matter the motivation, isn't something I would recommend, Buddhist or otherwise.
I honestly think the girl and her family carefully thought through the options and she chose what she felt was best for her. The idea of a teenager making that kind of decision sounds strange but in health care we are taught to let teenagers know the whole truth and include them on the decision making process. I'm sure her parents are hurting over her choice but feel they are doing the right thing.
I need to make a clarification on what euthanasia is. There are two types.
Active euthanasia is when a person does an action that will end the patient's life whether or not the patient agrees to it. Giving someone enough drugs to end their life or administering them is active euthanasia. This is the choice of another agent with or besides what the patient wants. It is also illegal as Dr. Kevorkian learned.
Passive euthanasia is not intervening on an illness or it's outcome. If I were to have a terminal illness, I do not want anything done but to keep me comfortable. Through not doing anything, I would die. This seems to be what many people want these days. Though I am not free from delusion, greed, suffering and still unenligthened, that is the best decision I can make with my current knowledge. I would be very annoyed if someone tried to stop that process for their own reasons. This is not illegal. Watching someone stop fighting when administering medications to keep them pain free and anxiety free is a big honor to me.
Life isn't black and white. There are always some gray areas we must think through and seek out what the best choice is. As Jason puts so succinctly, we need to look at the Buddha's teachings and then apply them to the best of our ability and know how. I can't tell a pro-life fundamentalist Christian to remove life support from their loved one when they believe otherwise. I guess my point is that we are here to walk along side with each other and help when we can.
I honestly think the girl and her family carefully thought through the options and she chose what she felt was best for her. The idea of a teenager making that kind of decision sounds strange but in health care we are taught to let teenagers know the whole truth and include them on the decision making process. I'm sure her parents are hurting over her choice but feel they are doing the right thing.
I agree. I do not think anyone, including teenagers, should get an organ transplant if they do not want one. Infants, however, are another matter since they are unable to understand the situation and make their own informed decisions, so I think that it is up to the parents to make such decisions for them.
I need to make a clarification on what euthanasia is. There are two types.
Active euthanasia is when a person does an action that will end the patient's life whether or not the patient agrees to it. Giving someone enough drugs to end their life or administering them is active euthanasia. This is the choice of another agent with or besides what the patient wants. It is also illegal as Dr. Kevorkian learned.
That is not entirely correct; assisted suicide via a prescription for a lethal dose of medication is legal in Oregon, and now Washington. Dr. Kevorkian did something similar by hooking his patients up to a machine whereby they administered the doses themselves. Unfortunately, he did so in Michigan, illegally.
Pally, you had to bring in the weight of one life vs. many. You're right, I would have a very tough situation in that position. In fact, even though "I will never leave a fallen comrade" is something all US Soldiers are supposed to live by, it's a hard thing to ask a fire team/squad to sacrifice their own lives to abide by that one principle. But, this is a situation where the overall effect is to be considered. I would never murder someone who was still breathing, but I would never demand to prolong their pain artificially.
Yeah, I raised that point just to illustrate that it is not always so black and white. The case of the teenager refusing the transplant is an interesting one. I also agree that she obviously was competent to make that decision, and I can certainly understand her reasons for not doing so. I also don't think that some arbitrary age limit set by politicians or judges should be used. That's just plain stupid as individuals vary in their development.
As far as assisting someone with suicide, I don't agree with that one, regardless of the motivation. That, as it said in the quotation posted by Jason, produces negative karmic results. Sorry, Dr. Kevorkian. Just making something legal does not alter the karma, btw.
You're right Jason. But most states it is still illegal. I was thrilled that Michigan passed a Medical Marijuana law to help with pain control. These are sensitive areas where much thought still needs to be put into in order for one to make the best decision for themselves.
As far as assisting someone with suicide, I don't agree with that one, regardless of the motivation. That, as it said in the quotation posted by Jason, produces negative karmic results. Sorry, Dr. Kevorkian. Just making something legal does not alter the karma, btw.
Palzang
Palzang,
I hope you understand that I would not condone active euthanasia. It is difficult from the perspective of one who has seen many people suffer from terminal illness to say what is right for any individual. I can really only speak for myself and what my wishes are in those events. I know that I would want to do everything in my power to help a person remain comfortable and pain/symptom free.
I know what you mean, Jer. I remember when I worked as an orderly in a local hospital in college, there was an old WWI veteran (of the Austro-Hungarian Army, no less) who was dying an extraordinarily painful death from spinal cancer. That is probably one of the worst ways to go I can imagine - excruciating pain over months with no relief. I really liked him, Kaiser Wilhelm moustache and all, and before the pain got too intense we had some nice talks. Even though he couldn't really communicate at the end, I think he really appreciated the patience and care I treated him with. You could see it in his eyes. I never minded doing whatever he needed to feel a little more comfortable. I would have given anything to end his suffering, but I think in the end it was better that he went out naturally, even with all that suffering. He was, after all, a soldier in a war, so who knows what kind of karma he accrued? He may have gone a long way to working that off by suffering so much, and now perhaps he is free of it. I pray so anyway. I would love to meet him again some day...and who knows? Maybe I have!
Comments
In many cases we could have kept a pet hanging on for a few more months but to be perfectly honest, with a quality of life that would have been worthless both for the animal and the owners - in these cases we always advised euthanasia (incidentally losing money for ourselves - cost of a lethal shot against months of expensive treatment).
I remember having a conversation with the vet for whom I worked and he said - I hope by the time I get to that age, we will have got enlightened enough to treat our fellow man as well as we treat our animals and that I will be able to choose the time of my going, peacefully, in dignity and with my family around me.
I can find no fault with that.
Euthanasia, on the other hand, which I consider to be the willful termination of someone's life, no matter the motivation, is not something I would recommend, however, as this involves the karma of killing a human being and thus removing any possibility of them attaining enlightenment in that life. That is indeed a heavy karma to accrue. But again, life is never that black and white. Take the example of a covert patrol behind enemy lines in wartime. Suppose one of the team is severely wounded, too wounded to continue on, but if left behind he could be captured and forced to reveal information that would cost many lives. Would you leave him behind to suffer his fate (and possibly cost many soldiers their lives as well), or would you kill him, taking on that particular karma for the benefit of others?
Palzang
I do know, however, that in case of major illness or injury, it will be stipulated in my living will that I not be put on life sustaining machinery like an artificial respirator. If I can't breathe on my own I want to die a normal death. So there will be no plug pulling for my family to deal with.
It is the more greater deal of... "Active" euthanasia that's more hazy?
Actually not being put on an artificial respirator would be the same as "pulling the plug" the way I define it because if you didn't stipulate it in your living will, you can bet that the docs would hook you up. So it's the same thing really, the wish not to be kept alive artificially.
Palzang
The big problems that I have seen arise when someone has not made their wishes known. This makes for undue suffering for all involved. Doctors and nurses carefully think about what action to take or suggest. I would like everyone to know we don't automatically go 'Pull the plug' and think nothing of it. That is someone's loved one in the bed and deserves respect. There are times that we don't agree with the family's decision, but we abide by it. It's difficult when no one agrees with what the course of action should be. One of the most helpless feelings as a health care provider I've faced is the family wishing that their loved one would pass but because of their religious beliefs should continue with everything. I've had families look to me and wish the medical team would not try as hard to resuscitate their loved one when their religion conflicts with what their loved one's passing, even though the person is considered "full code". That puts one in a very sticky situation. It was those kind of situations that got me out of ICU. I didn't want to make decisions for anyone but myself.
It is never an easy decision to stop life support. Be kind to your loved ones and decide for them before they have to decide for you.
I agree that this is a better way of looking at it. And, interestingly enough, the Buddha compared kamma to the field, consciousness to the seed, and craving to the moisture in regard to beings being established in a new realm of existence (link).
I think that's a good point. While I strongly believe that individuals should have the right to do what they want with their own bodies, as well as support a person's right to end their own life when they are deemed to be sober and of sound mind, I agree with you that the willful termination of someone's life, no matter the motivation, isn't something I would recommend, Buddhist or otherwise.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5158526.ece
Now do we need to examine 'competencies'?
I need to make a clarification on what euthanasia is. There are two types.
Active euthanasia is when a person does an action that will end the patient's life whether or not the patient agrees to it. Giving someone enough drugs to end their life or administering them is active euthanasia. This is the choice of another agent with or besides what the patient wants. It is also illegal as Dr. Kevorkian learned.
Passive euthanasia is not intervening on an illness or it's outcome. If I were to have a terminal illness, I do not want anything done but to keep me comfortable. Through not doing anything, I would die. This seems to be what many people want these days. Though I am not free from delusion, greed, suffering and still unenligthened, that is the best decision I can make with my current knowledge. I would be very annoyed if someone tried to stop that process for their own reasons. This is not illegal. Watching someone stop fighting when administering medications to keep them pain free and anxiety free is a big honor to me.
Life isn't black and white. There are always some gray areas we must think through and seek out what the best choice is. As Jason puts so succinctly, we need to look at the Buddha's teachings and then apply them to the best of our ability and know how. I can't tell a pro-life fundamentalist Christian to remove life support from their loved one when they believe otherwise. I guess my point is that we are here to walk along side with each other and help when we can.
I agree. I do not think anyone, including teenagers, should get an organ transplant if they do not want one. Infants, however, are another matter since they are unable to understand the situation and make their own informed decisions, so I think that it is up to the parents to make such decisions for them.
That is not entirely correct; assisted suicide via a prescription for a lethal dose of medication is legal in Oregon, and now Washington. Dr. Kevorkian did something similar by hooking his patients up to a machine whereby they administered the doses themselves. Unfortunately, he did so in Michigan, illegally.
As far as assisting someone with suicide, I don't agree with that one, regardless of the motivation. That, as it said in the quotation posted by Jason, produces negative karmic results. Sorry, Dr. Kevorkian. Just making something legal does not alter the karma, btw.
Palzang
Palzang,
I hope you understand that I would not condone active euthanasia. It is difficult from the perspective of one who has seen many people suffer from terminal illness to say what is right for any individual. I can really only speak for myself and what my wishes are in those events. I know that I would want to do everything in my power to help a person remain comfortable and pain/symptom free.
Palzang