An Infinite Universe?

TheUnity

^^^
Interesting documentary.

Do you believe that the universe is infinite? To me, the thought of reality being finite is sort of scary and a bit illogical. Though, if you believe that the Big Bang occurred, it would sort of be hard to believe that the universe is infinite. And if there was no Big Bang, did everything just appear out of no where, or is everything constantly expanding outwards? If everything is expanding outwards, did the expansion start at one point?

Perhaps theres infinite universe, with each one being finite. The universe expanding and accelerating outwards shows that, perhaps, the gravity from other universes could be pulling us. But that would have to mean that gravity exists in the infinite plain that finite universes exist.

Or are we just one finite universe with a nothingness surrounding us?

Sure, we won't ever truly know in this lifetime, and it really doesn't matter to much to our lives, but its interesting to think about it and discuss with others.

Namaste.

Cloud

Hello brand new member TheUnity, how do you do?

TheUnity

Good. Glad to be here. I have another question which I wish to ask, but I don't want to make too many threads...

Roger

FWIW,

I heard something funny this morning and I'm going to memorize it and repeat as necessary, "Science is just another way of saying we don't know."

Meaning: No matter how advanced scientific findings become in a specific field, "We don't know" will ___always___ be the answer to the last questions asked about those findings.

compassionate_warrior

I like that, Roger. The thing is, they really don't know much. Especially in the US, they brush aside so much stuff as hokum, without researching it. Science is about investigating, not dismissing questions out of hand. If it weren't for the Germans, for example, the world never would have found out how the gemstones in Tibetan medicine work. That's important.

Hey, I have a better one: "Science is just another way of saying we don't want to know." ^_^

TheUnity

Well, Roger, in my opinion, thats not really all that correct. I would say it should be more along the lines of, "We're not positive, but we think..."

You can't be sure of ANYTHING. Everything is always changing and impermanent. Science isn't even sure of anything at all, but they take educated guesses. In all actuality, you don't know anything either. Everything you think you know is just educated guesses based off of past evidence and experience.

compassionate_warrior

Someone's a huge fan of Buddhist relativity. Welcome, TheUnity.

Vincenzi

at the very least, space is infinite.

compassionate_warrior

I'm not sure they know even that for sure, Vincenzi. There was a theory for awhile that space curved in on itself. But then the question would be: so what's beyond space? They're still working on it, as far as I know.

Cloud

We don't even know what "space" is. Show any part of "space" that doesn't have "things" in it... planets, stars, asteroids, dust, various radiation/waves passing through it. Really space seems to be there only to keep things from bumping together. If space were infinite, matter and energy would also be infinite. At least, from what we're able to observe.

In short, "space" is not separate from matter and energy.

Jeffrey

Is space an experience? Or is it an abstraction that is a belief, with or without corroborating evidence. When I say space in a buddhist context I mean an experience. For example the ability to walk from one place to another is an experience in space. A rainbow is spacious. It appears and is vibrant and has the quality of space. But it is not really anything at all. (I know from a science perspective it is photons, but I am talking metaphorically). In this sense thought also has the quality of space. And one paradox is that thought we assume has a boundary, but upon analysis we cannot find a boundary. Just like we cannot find the boundary between a grain of sand, a pebble, and a rock.

Cloud

I took Vincenzi's post to be talking about "outer space", so that's what I was talking about. Still, if it's taken to mean what's between "things" everywhere ("emtpy space") as opposed to the "vacuum of space", it's still true that space is not separate from matter and energy.

Roger

Reminds me of a mythical extra credit question on a philosophy exam in college.

To be answered in written form, the question was: "Why?"

Despite heroic answers comprising dozens of paragraphs, the only correct permissible answers were the words, "Because" and "Why not?"

LOL.

Seriously though, we're a tiny droplet of universal mind caught up for 70-80 years in these bodies and brains with sense organs. All we are going to get is what these biological arrangements can provide. IOW, everything is going to be in human terms. Mathematics, physics, religion, art, language and literature: It's all a human invention.

Like astronomer Eddington said, "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."

Wondering about it sure is fun though. :thumbsup:

Cloud

sounds about right to me

Vincenzi

...I was refering to the arupa jhana of infinite space; as proof that space is indeed infinite.

Cloud

A meditative state can hardly be called proof/evidence of that, V.

Jeffrey

First show me that evidence can prove existence without resorting to axioms (apriori) and we can then go into that.

Infinite space does not exist except as a referrent to an experience. Same with apples.

TheUnity

If you see, touch, hear, feel, and taste something, its real. Well, real to you.

Vincenzi

it may "not be buddhist", but I think that mind comes first... and whatever that is imagined or experienced by mind becomes reality... eventually.

so, if a mind can experience infinite space, then infinite space either exists already... or mind is shaping reality so that it exists.

(it makes sense, but it is somewhat difficult to explain)

Jeffrey

I agree that experience is within the mind. When someone is behind a tree they are still there even though I cannot see them. But my experience is that I cannot see them and I think they are there.

Roger

Anti-materialist thinking is sooo much more efficient.

If it's not perceived it doesn't exist.

Kicking a rock does not prove it is solid and has an independent existence.

Objects are MERELY ideas!

I like Berkeley. Very Bub Bub Bub Buddhist! Check it ouuuut! :rockon:

LINK:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/berkeley/

Jeffrey

Kicking a rock is an experience. Thinking about that experience is also an experience, but the thinking content seems more real than the experience of thinking. That is what we notice in meditation.

TheUnity

Roger, but once your body dies, and your brain and your ability to perceive things dies, does everything cease to exist?

Jeffrey

Nobody knows. People have died but we are uncertain that their experience ended.

Vincenzi

Roger, but once your body dies, and your brain and your ability to perceive things dies, does everything cease to exist?

there can be a mind without a body... everyone living in arupa dhatu (inmaterial domain) has only mind; as does all bardos.

also, extending the theory: mind will create (or perceive) another reality (a new life).

formermonkJohn

are you sure theunity isnt thejourney trying to play by the rules? just a thought

rainbowwarrior

Hi TheUnity - do some research on Dark Matter/Dark Energy. There is a good documentary series called What we still don't know and also The Universe which did an episode about this topic.

I don't believe in a universe - but rather a multiverse.

[DeletedUser]

If you show an unconditional loving-kindness to someone, that moment of loving-kindness is finite universe or infinite universe. Its simply universal.

Roger

Roger, but once your body dies, and your brain and your ability to perceive things dies, does everything cease to exist?

The "I" (me Roger) ceases to exist (no more body for "me" to exist in), the .0001% of "me" that's infinite mind continues on as usual.

What's "infinite mind?"

We can't handle what it is: no adequate outside-of-the-human-realm explanation is possible. Supposedly it's never born, never dies, massive and keeps going and going and going.

I'm just guessing.

Italiano

The point is, whether or not the object continues to exist without the subject is unknowable. The only way we can know is with the observer. So sure, we should strive for that rationalist perfection, but on the other hand we must recognize that ultimately all we have is perception.

compassionate_warrior

To assuage people's suspicions, TheUnity is the former MindGate, he is not TheJourney. The PowersThatBe on the site know MindGate reincarnated as TheUnity. Is everyone OK with that? I am.

mugzy

Meh... :whatever:

compassionate_warrior

Mugzy, you get points for a good emoticon.

Roger

It's all in our minds. We have the body-dependent sense organs interacting with something out there but the mind is what's making sense of it.

No mind - no thing. HAHA! Of course a thing is just an idea, a specific collection of sense impressions, it has no independent existence.

Again "our" mind is just a teeny tiny piece of infinite mind stuck for a ride in a human brain for 80 years or so.

I LOVE it! Works for me!

federica

To assuage people's suspicions, TheUnity is the former MindGate, he is not TheJourney. The PowersThatBe on the site know MindGate reincarnated as TheUnity. Is everyone OK with that? I am.

I don't know why you assume you have any say in the matter.

Now-Is-reality

Well then...