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Moses was high on hallucinogenic drug when he received Ten Commandments,' claims top academic.

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Comments

  • CamCam
    Before I saw the "claims top academic" part of the title, I thought this was a TJ spam thread :p

    Interesting read
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    :)
    No!
    I don't like to spam.
    Never!!!
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    It's possible, but what difference does it make?
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    It's possible, but what difference does it make?
    Well what difference does anything make?
    It is definitely an interesting thought.
  • VangelisVangelis
    Interesting. I always say that the book of Revelation was written in a drug induced stupor. It's just incomprehensible. It rivals the best Heavy Metal imagery!
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    But you'll never know... it's speculation. If you were to know what really happened there, would it make a difference to your day to day life?

    I do things differently now than I did before due to the different things I've discovered via Buddhism.

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Moses getting high affects Buddhism or even Abrahamic religions.

    Maybe I am just being overly critical lately, I don't know. You're right it's interesting, "but what does it do"?
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    Before I saw the "claims top academic" part of the title, I thought this was a TJ spam thread :p
    Sadly, I thought the exact same thing.

    But in any case, I have heard similar arguments about other biblical stories and related cases. There's the theory that the Salem witch trials were due in part to ergot poisoning, which can cause extreme hallucinations.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    But you'll never know... it's speculation. If you were to know what really happened there, would it make a difference to your day to day life?

    I do things differently now than I did before due to the different things I've discovered via Buddhism.

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Moses getting high affects Buddhism or even Abrahamic religions.

    Maybe I am just being overly critical lately, I don't know. You're right it's interesting, "but what does it do"?
    Nah, I agree.
    I guess it gives you "knowledge," facts and something to talk about when consumed in conversations with everyday people?
    Chit Chat?
    I think it gives you an, "edge?"
    Lol...
    I know what you are saying and I would co-heartedly agree with you!

  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    Interesting. I always say that the book of Revelation was written in a drug induced stupor. It's just incomprehensible. It rivals the best Heavy Metal imagery!
    apocalyptic literature was meant to be highly metaphoric... even as a prophecy, it uses a writting that uses figures of speech freely.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Interesting. I always say that the book of Revelation was written in a drug induced stupor. It's just incomprehensible. It rivals the best Heavy Metal imagery!
    apocalyptic literature was meant to be highly metaphoric... even as a prophecy, it uses a writting that uses figures of speech freely.
    That is really interesting.
    http://www.sacred-Texts.com is very interesting, if you care to read sacred texts or sacred religious books.
  • MellowViperMellowViper
    edited February 2011
    Maybe they did used psychedelic mushrooms, but I don't think it undermines the religion. John Allegro may have thought so, but he just didn't understand the nature of Shamanistic religion. People who belong to religions that make ritualistic use of shamanistic plants, like Ayahuascha, Peyote, or Iboga have lower instances of alcohol and addictive drug use, lower rates of spousal abuse, and a lot of positive side effects by confronting their unconscious in their ceremonies through those substances.



    Check out this segment from Around the World in 80 Faiths where the host visits an Ayahuascha church in Brazil,
  • MellowViperMellowViper
    edited February 2011
    Interesting. I always say that the book of Revelation was written in a drug induced stupor. It's just incomprehensible. It rivals the best Heavy Metal imagery!
    apocalyptic literature was meant to be highly metaphoric... even as a prophecy, it uses a writting that uses figures of speech freely.
    Yah, I agree. Literalists who think metaphor is meaningless don't really understand the power that metaphor has in language. To really capture the emotion and inner conflict of the human experience really requires literary devices outside of concrete thinking. The problem, though, is some people really aren't that good at abstract thinking to begin with, so metaphor and parable might be incomprehensible to them. Also, the Romans were hunting early Christians down, so metaphor and coded language was a necessity for survival as evidenced by early symbols like the Ichthys (otherwise known as the Jesus Fish).
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    Well, thanks for sharing.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    do you people wait till the moderators are sleeping to post this cxxp, what does this have to do with buddhism, does discrediting christianity or judaism benefit buddhism i just dont get it, to call this article even journalism is a stretch!
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    This theory has been around for years. Personally, as a Jew, nothing would surprise me ;)

    I even call my car Moses because the last time it aquaplaned through water, it flew up either side of me.

    In metta,
    Raven
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Chillax John. I highly doubt it's being posted to insult the Jews. I've seen posts that are deliberately inflammatory, this is certainly not one of them.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    do you people wait till the moderators are sleeping to post this cxxp, what does this have to do with buddhism, does discrediting christianity or judaism benefit buddhism i just dont get it, to call this article even journalism is a stretch!
    That is why it is under general section?
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran


    Interesting theory. I believe it as much as believe the other story I guess I could say.

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    @dhammachick, Hilarious about your car. :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Before I saw the "claims top academic" part of the title, I thought this was a TJ spam thread :p
    Interesting read
    Haha! That's hilarious! TJ has obviously scarred us to some extent. but I'm enjoying Leon's articles that he's been posting.

  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    how about buddha was high on magic mushrooms when he dreamed up the four noble truths, that would seem especially warped coming from a 'top academic' addicted to hallucinogens himself; 140 times thats not experimentation, thats addiction.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Well, the ancient Aryans used hallucinogenic mushrooms and other plants ("soma"), and the Buddha was of the Brahman class, was he not? So it's not inconceivable.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    not to mention hed be breaking his own precept against getting high, you overlooked that fact!!
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Not if he used the hallucinogens before he left his palace, or before formulating the precepts.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    what im saying is a bottom not top academic thats done hallucinogens 140 times cant be trusted to tell us any thing about any body in this respect, especially someone 3000 yrs ago, and dissing christianity or judaism with ridiculous assertations isnt going to help further buddhism, just turn people off to the whole thing
  • RogerRoger
    edited February 2011
    Nah. Moses was contacted by Ancient Aliens. Haven't you guys been watching enough TV? :D:D:D:D:D

    LINK:
    http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens/episodes#slide-5
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    the headline should read "mystery academic high on hallucinogens thinks moses was too"
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Good one. :D
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Well John, the academic doesn't pay this Jew's bills and this Jew really couldn't care less and thinks perhaps you shouldn't either. Federica once posted a picture of a guy being called to bed and he was on the computer. His reply was "I can't, someone is wrong on the internet" I used to get really het up about things being said or written that were factually wrong or inflammatory and guess what? _I_ was the only one affected, not the knob who was spouting the stuff upsetting me.

    C H I L L A X. Some unknown posting on the net or writing in a paper is not worth getting sick, having a heart attack or bathing in negativity about.

    Shalom,
    Raven
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Well John, the academic doesn't pay this Jew's bills and this Jew really couldn't care less and thinks perhaps you shouldn't either. Federica once posted a picture of a guy being called to bed and he was on the computer. His reply was "I can't, someone is wrong on the internet" I used to get really het up about things being said or written that were factually wrong or inflammatory and guess what? _I_ was the only one affected, not the knob who was spouting the stuff upsetting me.

    C H I L L A X. Some unknown posting on the net or writing in a paper is not worth getting sick, having a heart attack or bathing in negativity about.

    Shalom,
    Raven
    What a beautiful and honest reply!
    I co-heartedly agree.
    I also used to get mad and negative about stuff I could not control.
    It was a waste of my energy and time.
    Thanks for reminding me!:)
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    this is the only forum i know where we get criticised for having opinions, lighten up a bit, dont take disagreements so seriously, so out of line with being a buddhist, i was always taught there are great traditions of debating within buddhism etc
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    z
    this is the only forum i know where we get criticised for having opinions, lighten up a bit, dont take disagreements so seriously, so out of line with being a buddhist, i was always taught there are great traditions of debating within buddhism etc
    My dear John,

    I am not coming from a point of criticising, I am coming from a point of concern for you. I'm sorry your perceive it that way. To be honest, I mistook your debate for being concerned at anti Semitism or offence.

    In meta,
    Raven
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    im 48 years old, i think i can take care of myself, thanks for the concern though, theres a lot of stuff in the bible that could have been influenced by drugs, i just dont think the ten commandements could possibly be the work of someone really high, if you know what i mean, i mean some of this religious stuff really takes some "sober" thought, and yes i am still offended by posting this article here, next time try the onion.com leon
  • MellowViperMellowViper
    edited February 2011
    not to mention hed be breaking his own precept against getting high, you overlooked that fact!!
    His precept had to do with not taking substances that cloud judgement and ones abillity to practice mindfulness, not just any plant or fungus that has any psychoactive effect whatsoever. I wouldn't call the trip from a psychedelic mushroom a high exactly. That's over-simplifying it. There can also be a lot of lows as well. Its not a feel good drug like alcohol or opium. It takes your subconscious and brings it into the light and scrutiny of conscious, self examination, which you could argue is a raising or amplification of awareness, not a diminishing of it. Read up on the ceremonial use of psychedelics by the Daima/Ayahuascha churches in South America or the Naive American churches that use peyote. Its not a drug that makes you ignore your subconscious or your pain. Its one that puts a magnifying glass on the best and worst in yourself and makes you confront your own psyche, head on.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited February 2011
    im not a virgin, it fs you up, big time, just the opposite of what the buddha was trying to do, if you dont believe me, drop some shrooms and try to write youre own 10 commandments, i can tell you right now there going to be great; earth shattering, at least until you sober up and look at them a few days later, then youll be saying, "what was I thinking?" plus its a major trigger for psychotic illnesses, over time ive noticed my ability to hold a rational conversation with someone is inversely proportional to how many hard drugs theve done, i used to have an acid head as my boss in the speaker business; completely irrational,
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Are we done bickering over semantics?
    John, really...
    This is general banter. Nobody is being harmed by our talk because it's just between us.
    as most Buddhists really don't care one way or the other about the Christian faith, the Bible or God's message and how it was conveyed, (it's not our bag, doesn't influence us and is of no overwhelming concern) it's mere chat.

    You have a whole set of different opinions about God, Buddha unity, merging consciousness, one big all....

    We don't. What seems outrageous to you, is trivia to us.

    The other line of reasoning is that if you don't care about a topic so much - there's nothing to stop you NOT contributing.....
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Federica once posted a picture of a guy being called to bed and he was on the computer. His reply was "I can't, someone is wrong on the internet"
    You say/quote the most hilarious things, Raven. :D

  • VangelisVangelis
    Interesting. I always say that the book of Revelation was written in a drug induced stupor. It's just incomprehensible. It rivals the best Heavy Metal imagery!
    apocalyptic literature was meant to be highly metaphoric... even as a prophecy, it uses a writting that uses figures of speech freely.
    Yes, I am well aware of the justifications for these writings. The Heavy Metal gods would be proud of the authors. And it's always easy to find meaning after the fact. Foretell the future? I don't think so!
  • MellowViperMellowViper
    edited February 2011
    im not a virgin, it fs you up, big time, just the opposite of what the buddha was trying to do, if you dont believe me, drop some shrooms and try to write youre own 10 commandments, i can tell you right now there going to be great; earth shattering, at least until you sober up and look at them a few days later, then youll be saying, "what was I thinking?" plus its a major trigger for psychotic illnesses, over time ive noticed my ability to hold a rational conversation with someone is inversely proportional to how many hard drugs theve done, i used to have an acid head as my boss in the speaker business; completely irrational,
    Yah, you don't want to overdo them. I definitely wouldn't abuse them for their sensory effects. Its not a party drug, However, I have to disagree with you. There's been some very rational results from the use of psychedelics. Douglas Engelbart attributes his use of taking LSD to a lot of the inventions he came up with that have resulted in home computing, Francis Crick realized the structure of DNA while on LSD, and the guy who invented PCR, DNA amplification says his Nobel prize winning discovery was due, in part, to dropping acid. They open up doors of perception, and if they're used in a ceremonial setting in the proper context, they can be quite beneficial as I was pointing out with the Native American and Daima churches. I wouldn't really consider them "hard drugs" in the sense of heroin or methamphetamine, and I've had some lasting insights from my psychedelic experiences that aren't incomprehensible. I found discovering the moral code rather easy on shrooms actually. Because were all one consciousness with this mysterious and interesting ego drama imposed on it, then we should treat others as we treat ourselves. I should respect myself, others, and my surrounding, because we all derive as one from the universe, and our sense of separateness is only an illusion. That's the lasting insight I've had from it anyway. In fact its what's lead me to Buddhism in a lot of ways.

  • MellowViperMellowViper
    how about buddha was high on magic mushrooms when he dreamed up the four noble truths, that would seem especially warped coming from a 'top academic' addicted to hallucinogens himself; 140 times thats not experimentation, thats addiction.
    Also, psychedelics aren' addictive. That's like calling someone addicted for spalunking or mountain climbing 140 times. It really takes you out of your comfort zone too much to be addictive.

    I got a real working knowledge of the Christian trinity on the last trip I had a few months ago, and, coming from that perspective, it really doesn't seem that far fetched to me about the Buddha possibly coming up with the 4 noble truths while on a mushroom induced vision quest. That's how Shamans have been clarifying their morality codes for thousands of years.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    I like it, MellowViper! For all we know, parts of the Vedas could've been conceived while on mushrooms. They were a big part of the culture back then.

  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    so this is what fedrica is looking for, pro drug diatribes on a buddhist forum
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Federica? It was Leon who opened the discussion. We're bringing some historical fact to light, in the context of the OP. We'll probably never know for sure if hallucinogens were part of Siddartha's life, but we know they were part of Aryan culture. No one's pushing them.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited February 2011
    so you have no problem with the idea that the buddha was a hypocrite who preached one thing;drug free, and did another, even though you have no evidence, me thinks the problem is more to do with modern hypocrites who claim to be buddhist yet refuse to follow the buddhas teaching like the precepts.
  • dorjedorje
    Well, Buddha did say to avoid substances which leads to intoxication or heedlessness. If that substance does not lead to heedlessness or intoxication I don't see what's wrong.

    Not that I'm advocating the use of psychedelics. I just prefer to take the long hard road instead.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited February 2011
    by clinical definition a person high on acid or shrooms is clinically insane and can get locked in a mental institution if found by police, any one trying to tell you this is not getting high is high themselves in denial of their addiction, by the way you cant serve in the US police forces if you have ever done acid. and according to urban legend anything over ten hits makes you legally insane for life.....
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Psychedelics do lead to heedlessness, they warp reality making it even less real than in our delusional thinking. It's foolishness to think otherwise or that this isn't included in the spirit of the precepts, and yes I've done LSD in the past so I know all too well what it does.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited February 2011
    so you have no problem with the idea that the buddha was a hypocrite who preached one thing;drug free, and did another, even though you have no evidence, me thinks the problem is more to do with modern hypocrites who claim to be buddhist yet refuse to follow the buddhas teaching like the precepts.
    Lots of assumptions in this statement. No one is saying the Buddha used psychedelics. We're saying he might have and could have. And he wouldn't have been contradicting any preaching, if he used the hallucinogens before coming up with the precepts, or before he left the palace, as previously noted. To whom are you referring, as "modern hypocrites"? Everyone here follows the precepts, as far as I know. (touchy, touchy!)
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited February 2011
    someone just said maybe the buddha used drugs, followed by " i just dropped acid" and then you said "everyone is following the precepts" get realistic!
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Who said "I just dropped acid"? I didn't see that. OK, so whoever that was, is the person you're calling a hypocrite? (singular) Good to have clarification. :D
This discussion has been closed.