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Reincarnation

CornishsunriseCornishsunrise
edited February 2011 in Buddhism Basics
What proof or evidence is there to suggest that we are subject to future re-births ?

Comments

  • RogerRoger
    edited February 2011
    FWIW, If I may as a beginner state that I'm not sure we fully understand reincarnation. We talk about it like it's understood, kind like it's understood that Santa rides a sleigh. I think it's beyond our ability to comprehend sufficiently.

    Nevertheless, in my amateur view, the evidence is stuff like His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, as a child was able to identify and recognize personal effects of the 13th Dalai Lama, Thubten Gyatso.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited February 2011
    most of the evidence is from past lives, either remembering them or believing religious leaders who remember their past lives, the tibetan book of the dead is a good account of the supposed process, i personally think several things can happen when you die, and what exactly has a lot to do with the mindset you develop in this life, some people may experience nothing at all, others heaven or hell, still others reincarnate, for me i hope dying is like going into a very real, interesting dream that you never wake up from, its a great big cosmos and i think there are lots of possibilities, may not be such a good idea to fixate on one thing as the only thing that happens after death, again a personal opinion, no scripture to quote, etc
  • DazzleDazzle
    If you are interested in rebirth, I definately recommend reading this:

    http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books7/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_Anatta_and_Rebirth.pdf

    Personally I don't feel that a child choosing objects it likes from a small selection of objects, is conclusive for anything at all.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    What proof or evidence is there to suggest that we are subject to future re-births ?
    What proof or evidence is there to suggest we aren't?

  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    What proof or evidence is there to suggest we aren't?
    Thats the same argument Christians have for God. "PROVE there isn't a God."

    You can't prove a negative. Its the job believers of something to put forth sufficient proof of the existence of something. Prove that there isn't microscopic, invisible Unicorns that live in our drinking water. You can't. That doesn't mean you should believe it though because you can't prove they're not there.

    If someone says, "Oh, I believe in reincarnation as a Buddhist," then they should put proof forward as to why they believe it if they want their beliefs to be taken seriously.

    What proof or evidence suggests you Buddhists don't go to Hell when you die for not believing in Jesus Christ, the one and only savoir? :p

    Really, the only real evidence I see is past life recollections. Though, what about after death experiences? When people meet God? I don't think these past life memories hold any REAL weight on the subject. But thats just me.

    :)
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran


    One of the best youtubers on youtube made a video about reincarnation if any of you care to watch. TheAmazingAtheist is very entertaining, though, I never agreed too much with this video. But anyways, yeah.
  • CornishsunriseCornishsunrise
    The more i think about why i asked the question about re-birth the less` important it seems .....:)
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Oh, no, this is a wonderful question, Cornish.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    What proof or evidence is there to suggest we aren't?
    Thats the same argument Christians have for God. "PROVE there isn't a God."
    You can't prove a negative. Its the job believers of something to put forth sufficient proof of the existence of something. Prove that there isn't microscopic, invisible Unicorns that live in our drinking water. You can't. That doesn't mean you should believe it though because you can't prove they're not there. I believe you can prove a negative....Science would agree with me. It's full of them.
    If someone says, "Oh, I believe in reincarnation as a Buddhist," then they should put proof forward as to why they believe it if they want their beliefs to be taken seriously.
    Ah. This is where we get to the nitty-gritty.
    Buddhism doesn't focus on beliefs but on what seems to the perceiver to be both logical and feasible. Some might say probable, or even likely. But many Buddhists will tell you that nothing in Buddhism is about 'belief'. It;'s about weight of evidence.
    The OP is asking for weight of evidence on something that ultimately is completely unprovable. I'm asking him to therefore tell me what he bases this 'disbelief' on....
    What proof or evidence suggests you Buddhists don't go to Hell when you die for not believing in Jesus Christ, the one and only savoir? :p
    "savoir"...?? Nice slip of the finger!!

    Well personally I don't think a God that omnipotent could have such an ego problem. Too many humans are experiencing hell right now, so I think a God that would subject them to further torture must need his marbles examining....But of course, that's just me. ;)
    Really, the only real evidence I see is past life recollections. Though, what about after death experiences? When people meet God? I don't think these past life memories hold any REAL weight on the subject. But thats just me.

    :)
    I consider that what Voltaire once said was very thought-provoking:

    "It should be no more extraordinary to be born twice than it is to be born once."

    I actually believe in re-birth - but I'm damned if I could coherently justify why. it just makes perfect sense to me.
    I'm re-born every minute of the day. So being reborn after I die doesn't seem too far fetched to me.
    Of course I could be completely wrong.
    Still, I'll find out and when I do, I'll see once and for all whether I was mistaken or not.

    Because to be honest, it really doesn't matter right Now.


  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    But WHAT would be reborn?

    And what negative could you prove? Natural laws? Ah, we can never be positive of anything, Fed. ;)
  • CornishsunriseCornishsunrise
    Basically it,s been proven that energy cannot be destroyed , it just transforms.
    Like a wave that travels across the sea and hits the beach ,tranforms to friction and sound etc. Now that,s interesting !
  • DazzleDazzle
    Personally I don't bother to speculate about rebirth or no rebirth - because the here and now in this life is the most important.

    :)
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Basically it,s been proven that energy cannot be destroyed , it just transforms.
    Like a wave that travels across the sea and hits the beach ,tranforms to friction and sound etc. Now that,s interesting !
    Yes, but just because the energy from your dead and decaying body is turning into worm food, plant food, heat, etc. doesn't mean that you're "reincarnated" per se.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Bits and pieces of plants and animals have been reincarnated/reborn as part of "me", and more will be before this body gives out. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2011
    But WHAT would be reborn?

    And what negative could you prove? Natural laws? Ah, we can never be positive of anything, Fed.

    So we must be negative. QED :p

    As to what is reborn?

    I look at it this way. (now ultimately, this is extraordinarily simplistic. but it suits me, because fundamentally, I am a person of very simple outlook).

    I have a thought. It blossoms into a conviction. Absolutely 100%. Inconceivable that it could be otherwise. But lo! What's this??
    Along comes a lucid and logical contradiction.
    I am obliged to change my mind.

    (Lovely phrase, that. 'Change' my mind.)
    so I do an about face. Complete 180.
    am in essence, partially transformed form having been 'one thing' into being another. Or at least, part of me is.
    That part is intangible, untouchable, and ethereal.
    it is my Mind, or consciousness.
    Many see this consciousness as a form of energy. Something that can evolve, transform, develop, evolve and change - but cannot be destroyed, for it was always there.... and so it will be when the body comes to its natural end.

    least, that's what I've concluded.....
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    The Buddha taught that all transient things are dependently arisen. If we apply this to consciousness, we see that if consciousness has not always existed then it at least must initially have arisen from non-consciousness; from supporting conditions. If it has always existed and does not arise from non-consciousness, then how could "rebirth" of consciousness cease? This would change something fundamental to the universe that has always been...
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited February 2011
    (From SN 22.53 at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanananda/wheel183.html#passage-17)
    "Were a man, monks, to declare thus: 'Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from formations, I will show forth the coming or the going or the decease or the rebirth or the growth or the increase or the abundance of consciousness' — to do that were impossible.
    *This declaration disposes of the possibility of regarding consciousness as an entity that transmigrates by itself. In the Mahaata.nhaasa.nkhaya Sutta (M. I. 258) we find the Buddha rebuking the monk Saati for misrepresenting him with the statement: "This self-same consciousness fares on and transmigrates and no other* (ana~n~na.m) — thus do I understand the Dhamma as preached by the Exalted One." The Buddha in repudiating it, says: "Foolish man, have I not, in many a figure spoken of consciousness as something dependently arisen (thus): 'There is no origination of consciousness except in relation to conditions.' The role of consciousness, as a dependently arisen phenomenon in the context of rebirth, has always to be understood with reference to one or more of the other aggregates.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2011
    *sigh* This is good, Cloud, suttric quotes are always good. but we've been through this before, and it seems that the suttras contradict each other on this account. I'm giving up. One can only accept rebirth, I think, if one has experienced past-life memories. Otherwise, it's just faith. Some people are ok with faith. some aren't. And that's ok, too.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Personally I neither believe nor disbelieve, since I have no firsthand knowledge of any of it. :D Given that, I concentrate on what I can find out.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    That's the approach I recommend. :thumbsup:
  • DazzleDazzle

    To support my earlier post about the here and now...

    Buddha said:

    "You shouldn't chase after the past
    or place expectations on the future.
    What is past is left behind.
    The future is as yet unreached.
    Whatever quality is present
    you clearly see right there, right there."

    (MN 131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta: An Auspicious Day)

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.than.html





    :)
  • [DeletedUser][DeletedUser]
    What proof or evidence is there to suggest that we are subject to future re-births ?
    How does baby came to this world? From the desire, from the parents, from the sperm, from the womb, from a treaty between the sperm and womb together. There are many parents and/or sperm and womb still could not achieve that desired agreement :cool:
  • ownerof1000oddsocksownerof1000oddsocks Veteran
    I don't see any evidence of any future, only what I can imagine. Got an awful lot of baggage called 'past' following me around too, that darn baggage.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Chuck the baggage. Today is a new day, a new you; the first day of the rest of your life. :)
  • ownerof1000oddsocksownerof1000oddsocks Veteran
    Indeed :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    (maybe if you chucked those 1000 odd socks, that would help lighten your baggage... ;) )
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    yeah, that's an awful lot of socks...ever thought of unravelling them and knitting a blanket instead?
  • CamCam
    From all the Dharma talks I've listened to, I came to the conclusion that it's not EXACTLY us that's being reborn, but rather our karma/Karmic energy. The ego is not preserved, but the heart, morals, ideals and such are - preserved in positive karma. Bad morals are preserved in bad karma.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    and they get mixed well together, add a little salt, minerals, metals, other components such as calcium, fibre, gelatin and loads and loads of water, and whaddya got....??

    oh loook! it's a baaaaaaaaby! :lol:
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    These discussions on reincarnation/rebirth never seem to get anywhere. Do a search on the several that have taken place already and you'll see that they don't really get anywhere either. It comes down to either believing it or not, usually as a matter of personal preference or faith.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    yup, I think that does cover it.

    Cornish - you want proof, you're going to have to find it for yourself - for yourself.
  • NidishNidish
    Well, I used to get this doubt.. But now, I am settled... Life is just a continuum(or whatever) of causes and effects.. And reincarnation is just the continuing of the last cause that is done in a particular body.. For when there is a cause, there has to be an effect.. But when the body is no longer capable, the effect manifests in a new body... No soul involved here...
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    imo, remembering past lives is enough proof.

    and as energy and matter cann't be destroyed, just transformed; it makes sense that mind too cann't be destroyed, just transformed.
  • CornishsunriseCornishsunrise
    Thanks very much for all your replies . It's been fascinating .
    I will keep an open mind on this one .
  • MellowViperMellowViper
    Personally I don't bother to speculate about rebirth or no rebirth - because the here and now in this life is the most important.

    :)
    This is true, but I think there's more of a tendency to be overly hasty if you think death is eternal. "Oh this is the only life. I have to get a bunch of money or be really important for this one blip of existence to mean anything" I pretty much just want to meet my full potential though in the moment I'm given, because I'm pretty sure this is just one of many manifestations of consciousness on the river of eternity. I don't think its an eternal puritanical paradise in heaven or suffering in hell forever and ever after this,not do I think my consciousness just dissapears. I think thats as absurd as saying that matter just dissapears.
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