Is understanding the nature of the self the most important endeavor in Buddhism?

taiyaki

All of those things are the result of perception. Our true self IS the perception. The awareness.

OMG!

More "our true self".

Why cannot my mind find this "our true self" of enlightenment?

OMG!

:bawl:

The mind cannot find the true self because it is the seeking that prevents you from finding what you already are.
Stop seeking. Just be and your true nature will present itself. You can't find or force your way into finding out who you really are. The more you try. The further you are from truth. Stop. Be and watch.

DhammaDhatu

Cuz there's no thing to find. By trying to find it, you are missing it.

OMG!

Now I am completely confused.

You have said: "Our true self IS the perception".

Then you said: "There's no thing to find".

Then you said: "You are missing it."

:banghead:

Like when my mind looks at itself, it cannot see any "true self" there. It can only see mind, like space, like brightness, like awareness, but no true self in that awareness.

Where am I going wrong? Why can't I find this true self?

:bawl:

DhammaDhatu

The mind cannot find the true self because it is the seeking that prevents you from finding what you already are.

My mind is so sorry. My mind is so hopeless. My mind is a failure.

My mind is unworthy of you, Taiyaki.

My mind can only find mind. Mind looks & can only see mind. Worse, impermanent mind.

OMG!

:bawl: :bawl: :bawl:

taiyaki

Everyone already is the Buddha. You are right, many things do come from ignorance. But the awareness prior to thinking is clear and can ever be tainted.

If that is the case, why did the Buddha teach awareness can be tainted, as follows:

If there is water in a pot mixed with red, yellow, blue or orange color, a man with a normal faculty of sight, looking into it, could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by sensual desire, overpowered by sensual desire, one cannot properly see the escape from sensual desire which has arisen; then one does not properly understand and see one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized.

— SN 46:55

:eek2:

Forget what the Buddha says. Figure out everything by your own experience. Sure the mind can be tainted by thoughts, desires, etc. But there are gaps in thinking. I some times have a nice thought, then something wakes me up from that thought. I go whoa, where was I? Our natural state is awareness. That awareness is clear and always in the background. We usually hang out in the foreground with your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc.

These scriptures and ideas all point truth. They are not truth themselves. They are like a boat. Once you cross the river, you leave the boat behind. Words they point to truth. They are not truth themselves.

Mystification

Cuz there's no thing to find. By trying to find it, you are missing it.

OMG!

Now I am completely confused.

You have said: "Our true self IS the perception".

Then you said: "There's no thing to find".

Then you said: "You are missing it."

:banghead:

Like when my mind looks at itself, it cannot see any "true self" there. It can only see mind, like space, like brightness, like awareness, but no true self in that awareness.

Where am I going wrong? Why can't I find this true self?

:bawl:

In real truth, everything is our true self, and yet there is no thing which can be pointed to and called "self." Everything that I say, everything the buddha says/said, is an expedient means to help you. In real truth, it's not true. Because by saying what it "is" it separates it from what it is "not" and what is cannot be separated. So THE REAL TRUTH is that you are always your true self, and that you are always enlightened. But these things that we tell you, whether it be me or the buddha or anyone else, are simply tools, although in reality they have no truth, or self nature.

taiyaki

What is failure? What is success? Aren't they two sides of the same coin?

I think you confuse mind with awareness. There is awareness and then there is mind. Awareness is always there. Your mind or thinking, feeling, etc exists after mind. Your original face is your awareness. Your mind is everything else after this awareness. How do you know you are thinking? How do you know you are feeling? What is aware prior and after to thinking and feeling?

What sees? What smells? What hears? You tell me?

The more you try and think the further astray you go.
Stop trying and thinking.

Cloud

*munches on some popcorn*

Dazzle

DD said .......

"Where am I going wrong? Why can't I find this true self? "

DhammaDhatu

These Advaita freaks are hilarious. Like zombie robot gurus.

Mystification

These Advaita freaks are hilarious.

Ah, yes. Calling people freaks. Clearly you are living the pure life you speak of.

taiyaki

Empty. Everyone is empty. Stop projecting yo!

formermonkJohn

Dhamma's mind is surfing right now!

DhammaDhatu

federica

Dhamma's mind is surfing right now!

Better surfing than suffering.
This thread is a great example of papañca.

Simonthepilgrim

@Federica:

PLEASE, PLEASE let this run on! It's just so funny!! "I am the king of the castle. Get down you dirty rascal." Memories of fights across the bomb sites of post-war London. Thank you, guys.

federica

Yeah, eventually their mums come out and call them home for tea...
"Bye Billy, see ya tomorrow!"
"yeah, ok Johnny, an' I'm the king, right??"

Funny how it's always Billy and Johnny.....

Thus

DD you've done a pretty awful job at discrediting Advaita, if that's your goal. You should also check out this essay for a scholar's perspective: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/26715.htm

Note the conclusion if you're too lazy to read it.

Thus

Note: I didn't mean to endorse Advaita, just to point out that the two might not be as incompatible as people generally think.

Vajraheart

Once you realize that clinging to awareness as an ultimate and singular source only leads to long lived god realms and formless bliss realms, you stop thinking that any other tradition is really compatible with Buddhism, as most traditions stop at the formerly mentioned state of bliss. There is experience, but it lacks insight, so there is a knowledge obscuration when you take the formless awareness as a presiding "self" of all. To do so is not seeing emptiness directly and is not seeing dependent origination but rather independent origination/consciousness, so is not the same as the Bodhi of Buddhas.

Thus, Buddhism and Advaita or any theism in general do not lead to the same place.

taiyaki

The Self becomes another form of ego. Even the Self is empty. Thanks for your teaching.

Vajraheart

The Self becomes another form of ego. Even the Self is empty. Thanks for your teaching.

All experiences arise dependently, even ones consciousness. The Buddha said explicitly there there is no uncaused cause, not one thing or non-thing that can arise without a cause, not even enlightenment.

One doesn't have to take his word for it though, as insight into dependent origination clarifies this and leads to the realization of infinite regress. Turning faceless awareness into an ultimate seal is making a rooftop out of an experience and this is the limitation with Advaita and Theism in general.

taiyaki

Couldn't you say that even some Buddhist get caught up in their large Self. It seems it is a limitation of the human ego.To make a general statement that all Advaita and Theism (whatever all that may be) get stuck in their Self is unknowable.
I suppose anyone has the potential to be drunk off emptiness.

It is what it is I suppose. Much love.

Vajraheart

Couldn't you say that even some Buddhist get caught up in their large Self. It seems it is a limitation of the human ego.To make a general statement that all Advaita and Theism (whatever all that may be) get stuck in their Self is unknowable.
I suppose anyone has the potential to be drunk off emptiness.

It is what it is I suppose. Much love.

Yes, it's an individual thing. But philosophically and contemplatively, Buddhism doesn't from the very beginning while Advaita and Theisms in general support this drunkeness both philosophically and contemplatively. They posit the experience of faceless consciousness as proof of a true and self abiding first cause, while buddhism does not.

taiyaki

Thank you for clearing that up.

DhammaDhatu

DD you've done a pretty awful job at discrediting Advaita, if that's your goal.

Buddhism is not Advaita. Buddhists generally have no interest in imposing their views upon Advaita or other religions. For example, I personally would not be caught dead posting on an Advaita forum or attending a sattsang.

Yet why do Advaita folks come to Buddhist forums and flood the Buddhist forums with Advaita, to the point of posting the supreme meditation is Ramana's "Who am I?" self-inquiry?

Do you personally have any notion what basic regard, acknowledgement or boundaries are?

The Buddha taught a wise person has seven qualities, one of which includes understanding other societies or cultures.

In regards to any notion of 'self', the Buddha himself was totally free from ambiguity:

Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html

Truth starts with basic honesty

Buddhism is not Hinduism (which has a habit of seeking to absorb other traditions into itself)

Buddha did not teach the same as Christ. Christ did not teach the same as Buddha.

Millions of Christians & Buddhists are devoted to their religions in their current form. Millions of Christians & Buddhists are not interested in Advaita or having Advaita folks babbling on about what Buddha or Christ were 'really pointing to'.

(However, my post does not imply Advaita folks are not welcome on Buddhist forums.)

All the best, enjoy




(The caption on the bottom states: "300 AC Brahminism starts to absorb Buddhism")

taiyaki

Does the flag move or does the wind move it. on and on and on and on. ananda won't you smile with me?

DhammaDhatu

taiyaki

you have probably made more posts here in the last 24 hours than anyone

your 'flag' is like blowing in a hurricane

smile with you?

absolutely not

you sound rather lonely, needing to absorb others into you and yourself in them

have you considered doing a solitary retreat?

:-/

in the mean time, i am happy to disagree with you, again & again

there is much more benefit in being able to abide at ease in disagreement rather than abiding in agreement

as Jesus said: "Love thy enemy. How does it benefit you to only love those who agree with you".

:coffee:

taiyaki

Compassion. You should always smile. It's a beautiful day.

taiyaki

taiyaki

you have probably made more posts here in the last 24 hours than anyone

your 'flag' is like blowing in a hurricane

smile with you?

absolutely not

you sound rather lonely, needing to absorb others into you and yourself in them

have you considered doing a solitary retreat?

:-/

in the mean time, i am happy to disagree with you, again & again

:coffee:

You only see what you want to see. Everything is empty, so what you see is merely your projection of yourself.

Do you understand this?

taiyaki

You deny Christ yesterday. You use him today.
Why do you find it useful to take others words and use it for your ideology?

Tell me something original. You bore me.
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

DhammaDhatu

taiyaki

i have posted sincerely about Buddhism

your mode of behaviour is out of line in respect of Buddhism

Buddhism is not Ganga Ji or Papa Ji, where the guru seeks to get inside of the students head

your mode of behaviour is aggressive in respect to Buddhist principles

your mode of behaviour is psychologically intrusive in respect to Buddhist principles

do you understand this?

the Buddha taught each student must walk the path

the Buddha did not teach a 'sattsang' facilator is required

do you understand this?

the Buddha taught a wise person has seven qualities, one of which includes understanding other societies or cultures

do you understand this?

taiyaki

So a Buddhist is a person who spits out scriptures to fit their notion of what Buddhism is?

DhammaDhatu

taiyaki

Ah so that is your Buddhism! Lol.

DhammaDhatu

So a Buddhist is a person who spits out scriptures to fit their notion of what Buddhism is?

The Buddha's realisations and the path to those realisations are listed in the scriptures.

In Buddhism, there is the Triple Gem, namely, the Buddha, the Dhamma & the Sangha

They are one jewel or inseparable

The scriptures are the Buddha.

Enlightened beings have the same realisations as are written in the scriptures

There is no difference, whatsoever

Buddhists defer any enlightenment or realisations they may have to the Buddha

They do not make person claims or declarations

Do you understand?

:eek2:

DhammaDhatu

Ah so that is your Buddhism! Lol.

To me, your behaviour is empty of reflection

I apologise if i have implied your behaviour is robotic but it seems that way

Wind her up and she will babble what her myriad gurus have babbled to her

taiyaki

beep beeep boop bop. alright i'll just be a robot.

i'm just as empty as you are.

DhammaDhatu

You deny Christ yesterday. You use him today.
Why do you find it useful to take others words and use it for your ideology?

Tell me something original. You bore me.
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

You lie, far from the truth.

I denied Christ taught the core teachings of the Buddha, namely, the aggregates, the sense spheres, the elements, the four noble truths, the three charactertistics & emptiness

I used Christ, thinking you may understand his words but, in response, you deny Christ by appearing to disagree or fight with what I and he said

I can only say the same about your robotic Advaita rhetoric

It is not original. It is boring

Also, your claims "to see" the Buddha called conceit or mana

The Buddha said such conceit is a fetter to full enlightenment

Kind regards

With luv

taiyaki

You are always right. Bless you.

DhammaDhatu

i'm just as empty as you are.

not really

your mind is full of demanding domineering cravings & personality views

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.


Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.
:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:

Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.

:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2:
Tell me the truth you have seen with your own eyes.




:wow: :eek2: :wow: :eek2: :sawed:

DhammaDhatu

You are always right. Bless you.

thank you

taiyaki

An actor wears a mask and he forgets that he is an actor. The actor remembers but keeps the mask on. How else would the actor save the world? Sitting silently abiding his time? hehe

DhammaDhatu

How else would the actor save the world?

171. Come! Behold this world, which is like a decorated royal chariot. Here fools flounder, but the wise have no attachment to it.

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another.

Dhammapada

:bowdown:

taiyaki

How else would the actor save the world?

171. Come! Behold this world, which is like a decorated royal chariot. Here fools flounder, but the wise have no attachment to it.

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another.

Dhammapada

:bowdown:

I agree. This is true. But a bodhisattva tries regardless.

Cloud

Please gentlemen. I was always taught if I didn't have anything good to say, to say nothing at all. Does it have to be a Buddhist teaching to be wisdom?

DhammaDhatu

Sexist comment. T could be a "lady".

federica

What an apposite way to end the evening.
Time for cocoa.