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Explain what Buddhism has to say about materialism

13

Comments

  • edited February 2011

    Hi Dazzle... seeing past lives directly. Actual re-experiencing of them, it's more like time travel than seeing a memory. Leading more to experiential faith than doubt.
    Probably what you experienced was cryptomnesia. My previous Vajrayana teacher said people often can make things up when they think they are regressing to their past lives.
    I also asked 2 other tulkus if they remembered their past lives and they didn't.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    We cannot possibly know how to conceptually overlay Vajras experience dazzle. The boundaries between people have no dimensions. Meaning its as much a leap of faith to believe that Vajra is ? I don't know how to say it. But we make a leap with other beings. But we don't know what other beings are any more than we know what past lives are.
  • We cannot possibly know how to conceptually overlay Vajras experience dazzle. The boundaries between people have no dimensions.
    I am simply passing on offline information from tulkus, Jeffrey.

  • Hi Dazzle... seeing past lives directly. Actual re-experiencing of them, it's more like time travel than seeing a memory. Leading more to experiential faith than doubt.
    Probably what you experienced was cryptomnesia. My previous Vajrayana teacher said people often can make things up when they think they are regressing to their past lives.
    I also asked 2 other tulkus if they remembered their past lives and they didn't.

    Sure, some do not... others do. Like I said, it's easy to make things up about experiences one has never had. What I'm saying is just doubt your doubt. Not to have no doubts, but just to turn it onto itself. Anyway... if one keeps practicing diligently the appropriate experiences will arise due to the fact of self illumination and by cutting through the dross of self, one gets to the subtle selves and then cuts through those as well... Which I have yet to do, as I'm no Buddha... yet.

  • Thanks so much Jeff
    We cannot possibly know how to conceptually overlay Vajras experience dazzle. The boundaries between people have no dimensions. Meaning its as much a leap of faith to believe that Vajra is ? I don't know how to say it. But we make a leap with other beings. But we don't know what other beings are any more than we know what past lives are.
    See, now that's being open. :)
  • My lama said she does not remember past lives. But Vajra says she does. Its an assumption to say she doesn't because I think my teacher is more special than Vajra. How should I know what someone's experience is. I have had hallucinations and in a conventional sense I am mentally ill. But from an experiential side the hallucinations are just non-collectively experienced phenomenon.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Yes, there is still the personal mind stream that is without self.

    The continuation of habit patterns within consciousness lasts beyond the individual body due to it's subtlety and clinging to self. For an enlightened being, this patterns is transformed into maintaining self awareness as an offering, leading to things such as the tulku tradition. There are too many proofs for past lives, kids that remember spontaneously without parental inference, etc.

    Because you are reading this sutta with an attachment to an outcome, you are not open to any sort of possible clarification and might not take my clarification with any weight. This has more to do with your pre-conceptions than my level of delusion.

    Seeing past lives directly for me does not solidify this sense of self, but realizes more deeply relativity and the subtle depth of mind. Sensations, forms, etc. exist on other dimensions, not merely physical. You are limiting your perception to gross level, and are missing much of what the Buddha taught in the Pali Suttas. You should go deeper into Jhana and stop attaching so much onto the body.
    Hi

    You have added nothing above, apart from admitting your "level of delusion".

    There is no evidence whatsoever. Just like when child lamas are chosen, the only reason it is only children who have supposed past life recollections is because religious zealots with psychic powers control the children's minds by transmitting thought messages into the children's minds.

    Once the children become older, those with psychic powers do not do this because it will be too mentally conflicting for the older child or person.

    The Venerable Sariputta, who was a master of jhana & who's mind was more lucid that the other arahants, did not acquire any special powers from his jhana.

    This is unrelated to "past lives" but simply demonstrates your rhetoric in relation to jhana.

    Whatever is observed by the mind between the 3rd & 4th jhanas are merely mental formations.

    Whether the mind flies thru the sky like a bird in jhana, in exotic places, is still just mental formations.

    For example, when we sleep, we may dream, of places & people we do not know in our ordinary daily lives.

    These dreams are mental formations. They are merely the imaginings of the mind. The Buddha taught such sankhara are void of substance, like a banana tree that has no inner core or heartwood.

    I can only say your mind is beguiled, what the Buddha called "chewed up".

    Your mind is lost in magic rather than realised how to end suffering.

    :)



  • See, now that's being open. :)
    and how is passing on information received offline from tulkus of the same lineage as Jeffrey's e-mail lama not being open?

    .
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    The belief that she is delusional is itself a mental formation. So to be logically consistent we must conclude either that you are both equally delusional or that your premises are incorrect. And furthermore the whole dharma must be a delusion because the buddha also had mental processes.
  • Yes, there is still the personal mind stream that is without self.

    The continuation of habit patterns within consciousness lasts beyond the individual body due to it's subtlety and clinging to self. For an enlightened being, this patterns is transformed into maintaining self awareness as an offering, leading to things such as the tulku tradition. There are too many proofs for past lives, kids that remember spontaneously without parental inference, etc.

    Because you are reading this sutta with an attachment to an outcome, you are not open to any sort of possible clarification and might not take my clarification with any weight. This has more to do with your pre-conceptions than my level of delusion.

    Seeing past lives directly for me does not solidify this sense of self, but realizes more deeply relativity and the subtle depth of mind. Sensations, forms, etc. exist on other dimensions, not merely physical. You are limiting your perception to gross level, and are missing much of what the Buddha taught in the Pali Suttas. You should go deeper into Jhana and stop attaching so much onto the body.
    Hi

    You have added nothing above, apart from admitting your "level of delusion".

    There is no evidence whatsoever. Just like when child lamas are chosen, the only reason it is only children who have supposed past life recollections is because religious zealots with psychic powers control the children's minds by transmitting thought messages into the children's minds.

    Once the children become older, those with psychic powers do not do this because it will be too conflicting for the older child or person.

    The Venerable Sariputta, who was a master of jhana & who's mind was more lucid that the other arahants, did not acquire any special powers from his jhana.

    This is unrelated to "past lives" but simply demonstrates your rhetoric in relation to jhana.

    Whatever is observed by the mind between the 3rd & 4th jhanas are merely mental formations.

    For example, when we sleep, we may dream, of places & people we do not know in our ordinary daily lives.

    These dreams are mental formations. They are merely the imaginings of the mind. The Buddha taught such sankhara are void of substance, like a banana tree that has no inner core or heartwood.

    I can only say your mind is beguiled, what the Buddha called "chewed up".

    Your mind is lost in magic rather than realised how to end suffering.

    :)

    The suffering of this life transcends this life.

    You bring up Sariputta, but what about Moggallana? Do I need to say more? He did have special insight into other realm activity, and it's mentioned in the Suttas.

    You are reading into the suttas and not letting them offer more. Ending suffering means delving into your unconscious and seeing the links that manifest conscious suffering.

    You have many pre-conceptions which delude your reading of the suttas. You talk about psychic powers? You have lots of projections. Just do your inner work... that is all.

    I am merely offering my own experience to help. Your take on them is your own.
  • The belief that she is delusional is itself a mental formation. So to be logically consistent we must conclude either that you are both equally delusional or that your premises are incorrect. And furthermore the whole dharma must be a delusion because the buddha also had mental processes.
    Yes, and mentioned past lives. People like to cut off certain suttas that do not jive with their own pre-conceptions so that they can stay bound by whatever degree of experience deludes them, this is only due to self attachment, nothing more. Though of course self attachment is deeply complex and by going deeply into the jhanas, one can experience this complexity for oneself.

    My Jhana experience is not limited to the lower 4.
  • The belief that she is delusional is itself a mental formation.
    Not sure I agree there.

    Not all mental formations are delusional.

    But all regarding mental formations as "I", "me" & "mine" is delusional.

    :)

  • Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    I wish you well on your path.

    Metta,

    Vangelis
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    You bring up Sariputta, but what about Moggallana? Do I need to say more? He did have special insight into other realm activity, and it's mentioned in the Suttas.

    You are reading into the suttas and not letting them offer more. Ending suffering means delving into your unconscious and seeing the links that manifest conscious suffering.

    You have many pre-conceptions which delude your reading of the suttas. You talk about psychic powers? You have lots of projections. Just do your inner work... that is all.

    I am merely offering my own experience to help. Your take on them is your own.
    Mogallana was a master of psychic power, that is all, such as divine eye, thought travel, etc.

    About his recollection of his own former existences, Moggallana spoke only once, in the 50th Discourse of the Middle Length Discourses. Like the 49th discourse, this is probably mere anti-Brahmin propaganda, composed after the Buddha.

    Ending suffering means abandoning attachment & craving and realising the three charactertistics, as prescribed in the 1st & 2nd sermons of the Buddha.

    In the Susima Sutta, the arahants declared their wisdom is via wisdom rather than knowledge of past lives (when they were questioned).

    Your offerring is 100% rejected. Lol. How deluded is your mind to regard yourself as a guru.

    It seems you are part of a cycle of brainwashing, wishing to brainwash others, like in a religious cult.

    :eek2:
  • VajraheartVajraheart Veteran
    edited February 2011


    See, now that's being open. :)
    and how is passing on information received offline from tulkus of the same lineage as Jeffrey's e-mail lama not being open?

    .
    I didn't say you weren't open. I said that Jeffrey was.

    Also, by what you say, already reaching at labels... which is fine, but possible mis-conclusions on your side?

    Maybe I'm making mis-conclusions, but who are you to judge so abruptly? I'm just saying, you have not made any statements revealing the possibility that I am right, only that I am wrong... how is that a revelation of openness? There are other conclusions that could be made? Jeffery seems to be open to all sorts, until he has his own experience as verification. So I complimented him on this.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Ok but you stated that hers were delusional because they were mental formations. Which is not a complete refutation of her position. You could say that it is wrong because it involves I, me, or mine. But then you would have to say that I am delusional when I say 'I am typing' which really doesn't say anything that liberates anyone from suffering. Would it really be enlightening to say the carbon based lifeform is typing?

    I think you have an understanding that is liberating to you, but you are incorrectly applying the 'I, me, mine' notion to another person with a different experience and it doesn't fit the situation.

    I could equally refute the statement 'I read in suttra 56b' because you also use 'I' And if you don't use I instead using it then that implies that to follow the buddhist path reading is unneccesary since 'it' is the only importance and not 'I'. Rangtongpa :nyah:
  • Using the tulku tradition as proof of past lives isn't actually proof of anything either. Those men were chosen at the age of 3, taken from their mothers and indoctrinated with information which they had to repeat and learn on a daily basis. If one goes to enough talks by different tulkus one can detect the similarities in everything they say, even down to the jokes.


  • I think you have an understanding that is liberating to you, but you are incorrectly applying the 'I, me, mine' notion to another person with a different experience and it doesn't fit the situation.

    I could equally refute the statement 'I read in suttra 56b' because you also use 'I'
    Right, DD is identifying with his conclusions and attaching self importance onto them, thinking all other interpretations of the Suttas as delusional. This self assuredness is also a delusion.

    Though, through depth of experience in jhana and contemplation, one does gain confidence that does transcend physical limitations, that is for sure.
  • Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    Do I detect a hint of punishment system karma being pronounced on DD here? Lol !

  • Using the tulku tradition as proof of past lives isn't actually proof of anything either. Those men were chosen at the age of 3, taken from their mothers and indoctrinated with information which they had to repeat and learn on a daily basis. If one goes to enough talks by different tulkus one can detect the similarities in everything they say, even down to the jokes.
    This is nothing like the Tulkus I have met. The ones I have met remember their past lives, directly.

    It's amazing what the mind will believe though, this is true! Including deeply subjective verification, thought of as objective that there are no past or future lives for oneself, as if non-existence existed?
  • VajraheartVajraheart Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    Do I detect a hint of punishment system karma being pronounced on DD here? Lol !

    Actions breed results, they can be taken as lessons or punishment, this is up to you to decide?
  • And as for the Nonsense in Buddhism videos, the guy has no idea what rebirth is. He starts off with the wrong concept, setting up a strawman, which he then tears down during the course of which he shows little understanding of what Buddhism is all about! What he says has nothing to do with Buddhism and I am frankly shocked that someone that calls himself a Buddhist would even dare to post this video to back up his claims.
  • How deluded is your mind to regard yourself as a guru.

    :eek2:
    Tsk, tsk! And the personal attacks continue! :eek2: Inded!

  • edited February 2011
    Vajraheart said:

    "My Jhana experience is not limited to the lower 4."

    Well I think many of us know what the Buddha and offline teachers have to say about people who announce their supposed attainments publicly.

    No need to say any more really - except good luck with your 'experience' !




  • Your offerring is 100% rejected. Lol. How deluded is your mind to regard yourself as a guru.

    :eek2:
    This is your freedom, of course. I'm no guru. I'm just here sharing, like yourself.

    :) No biggie!
  • i hate to say it, but Dhamma, youre representation of the Forest tradition makes it about as interesting as Nichren Soshu to me, i sincerely hope you are misguided, and it is not the fault of you're teachers
  • Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    Do I detect a hint of punishment system karma being pronounced on DD here? Lol !

    Oh, haha, I meant that not in a "rebirth"/"kamma" kind of way but that he will be the sort of person that will always be arguing with people because he is "always right". As is evident in the discussions he is having in this thread.

  • Vajraheart said:

    "My Jhana experience is not limited to the lower 4."

    Well I think many of us know what the Buddha and offline teachers have to say about people who announce their supposed attainments publicly.


    It's not an attainment to me, as it seems quite natural. I wouldn't write off someone just because they spoke their truth. I'm more into Vajrayana... there are different rules with right and left hand or balance in both.

    Why not imagine the possibility that I am right? Why does the human mind always go to the dark, lean to the dark, lean towards imaginings of corruption? It's an interesting phenomena in my opinion worth consideration.

  • Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    Do I detect a hint of punishment system karma being pronounced on DD here? Lol !

    Actions breed results, they can be taken as lessons or punishment, this is up to you to decide?
    Yes, thoughts, words and actions.

  • VajraheartVajraheart Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    Do I detect a hint of punishment system karma being pronounced on DD here? Lol !

    Actions breed results, they can be taken as lessons or punishment, this is up to you to decide?
    Yes, thoughts, words and actions.

    While we're elaborating... intentions as well breed results. :) Which IMO is subtler.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour.
    Vangelis

    You need to help yourself friend. My kamma abides with samma ditthi.

    My mind has reaped the results of its views, from the first day i learned Buddhism, which is to practise to abandon all clinging & to penetrate the reality of impermanence & emptiness.

    But you friend, reap what you sow, which is more "rebirth" becoming.

    :om:
  • That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour.
    Vangelis

    You need to help yourself friend. My kamma abides with samma ditthi.

    My mind has reaped the results of its views, from the first day i learned Buddhism, which is to abandon all clinging & to penetrate the reality of impermanence & emptiness.

    But you friend, reap what you sow, which is more "rebirth" becoming.

    :om:
    There is a difference between liberated becoming and bound becoming. Samsara is Nirvana when correctly cognized.

  • The Venerable Sariputta, who was a master of jhana & who's mind was more lucid that the other arahants, did not acquire any special powers from his jhana.
    Oh well, we'll just have to reject the whole of the Vissudhimagga based on your say-so then.

  • Dhamma Dhatu,

    You are so adamant you are right that you will not listen to any others here, nor any Buddhist monks. That's fine and you shall reap the results of that behaviour. Having failed to listen to them, I can do no more to help you.

    Do I detect a hint of punishment system karma being pronounced on DD here? Lol !

    Actions breed results, they can be taken as lessons or punishment, this is up to you to decide?
    Yes, thoughts, words and actions.

    While we're elaborating... intentions as well breed results. :) Which IMO is subtler.
    You're right. Instead of "thoughts" I should have said "mental formations".
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Yes, thoughts, words and actions.
    Dude

    Your mind needs to go beyond viewing everything as karma.

    This is mere lokiya dhamma, mundane, only one aspect of the path, morality.

    Buddha taught the karma that ends karma, namely, emptiness.

    There is no 'doer' of karma. There is simply mental activity, be it created by ignorance or created by wisdom.

    :wave:

  • But you friend
    Thank-you. I prefer that to your personal insults.

  • What was this thread about anyway hehe?

  • There is no 'doer' of karma. There is simply mental activity, be it created by ignorance or created by wisdom.
    I'm well aware of this. Having personally experience the separation of doer and observer and seeing the arising and ceasing of mental formations with no "doer" involved in the process. So I think I'm aware of this. Are you?

  • Oh well, we'll just have to reject the whole of the Vissudhimagga based on your say-so then.
    I have not hidden my rejection of Buddhagosa's writings.

    If we read the VM, we will read Buddhagosa dedicated it to his rebirth in a Brahmin heaven.

    Buddhagosa was not an arahant. His misunderstanding of Dependent Origination is testament to that.

    :)

  • What was this thread about anyway hehe?
    ROFLOL!!!!!


  • I'm more into Vajrayana... there are different rules with right and left hand or balance in both.

    Why not imagine the possibility that I am right? Why does the human mind always go to the dark, lean to the dark, lean towards imaginings of corruption? It's an interesting phenomena in my opinion worth consideration.

    So do you have any offline experience of Vajrayana and Theravada?

  • I'm well aware of this. Having personally experience the separation of doer and observer and seeing the arising and ceasing of mental formations with no "doer" involved in the process. So I think I'm aware of this. Are you?
    Personally, I have not declared anything. I simply mentioned theory.

    But you appear to be declaring you are an enlightened being, just like Vajraheart.


    :bowdown: :bowdown:
  • edited February 2011

    But you appear to be declaring you are an enlightened being, just like Vajraheart.


    :bowdown: :bowdown:
    Yes, I noticed that too... better prepare some offerings :bowdown: :bowdown:
  • Vajraheart declared she had directly experienced vajrayana and jhanas above the 4th. That doesn't mean she is an enlightened being! My teacher says that not all of the jhanas are even useful on the path.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Thank-you. I prefer that to your personal insults.
    You're welcome.

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic



  • I'm more into Vajrayana... there are different rules with right and left hand or balance in both.

    Why not imagine the possibility that I am right? Why does the human mind always go to the dark, lean to the dark, lean towards imaginings of corruption? It's an interesting phenomena in my opinion worth consideration.

    So do you have any offline experience of Vajrayana and Theravada?

    You mean transmission into Dzogchen from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche? Yes, plus meeting various other tulkus. I actually grew up my entire life Hindu in the Shaivite Tantra tradition involving kundalini, etc. , then started studying Buddhism.
  • Vajraheart declared she had directly experienced vajrayana and jhanas above the 4th. That doesn't mean she is an enlightened being! My teacher says that not all of the jhanas are even useful on the path.
    They can even lead to delusion without insight into dependent origination.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    There is a difference between liberated becoming and bound becoming. Samsara is Nirvana when correctly cognized.
    You are speaking a different language here, namely, Mahayana.

    In Theravada, when the Buddha said narahant still speaks "I" and "mine" in conventional social interaction, he did not regard this as 'samsara'.

    The Buddha regarded samsara is being fettered by ignorance & hindered by craving.

    The Buddha regarded nirvana as the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.

    The reported views of the Buddha do not correlate with those of Nargajuna.


    :)

  • My teacher says .....
    Simon says "Do this!" :buck:
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Sutra says "Do this!" hehe. In context I was pointing out that Vajraheart had not declared herself enlightened.

    As inoccous as if we were talking about italian coffee and I said "my brother said Lavazza is good". Brother knows best?
This discussion has been closed.