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Mindfulness vs. Useful Thoughts

edited February 2011 in Buddhism Basics
I'd like to know how some of you reconcile the practice of mindfulness with the practical need for thoughts. Clearly mindfulness is central to Buddhist practice, but conscious thoughts are necessary in everyday life. As an academic, conscious thoughts are at the core of how I make my living.

I presume that few of you on here are monks or lead monk-like lives. So, how do you do it?

As context, I should add that I'm a secular meditator, not a Buddhist, although the practices I use are from Buddhist sources (originally Chan mindfulness techniques, more recently supplemented with Metta Bhavna following Triratna descriptions of the practice).

Comments

  • There is a difference between thinking and being lost in thought. Being mindful, one thinks. Not being mindful, one is lost in thought. :)
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Everybody needs to think from time to time. Monks also. Mindfulness is a tool to see how this thinking process works and to get a grip on it, not to stop it completely. So we can use thoughts more efficiently when we need them and otherwise just be silent.

    You don't need to worry about losing your mind or something ;)
  • Useful thoughts are precisely that- useful thoughts. The world would not progress without useful thoughts. Many compassionate works can take place as a result of useful thoughts, as well as everyday necessities. Useful thoughts are very necessary.

    Thich Nhat Hanh was part of the Paris Peace Delegation during the Vietnam war. That took a lot of practical thinking.
  • the biggest benefit of meditation for me was to stop racing thoughts, that i couldnt stop or have any control over, now my thoughts are paced by brief or sometimes lengthy silences in between, im able to stop thinking long enough to listen to someone without having a whole nother conversation going on inside my head, i dont know if this is mindfulness, but it helps me a lot, especially in this respect buddhism has really changed my life for the better.
  • You can be mindful and still have many useful thoughts. In my line of work/study, I have to be thinking *constantly* about my patient, what's happening with their physiology, how I'm going to pre-empt or deal with adverse changes, how I'm going to wake them up after surgery is over, etc, etc, etc. Those are necessary and very useful thoughts. I don't dwell on them, I have them, act on them, and then let them go.

    The thoughts that are not useful to me (I'm so ugly nobody will ever want to be with me, that guy is a real jerk and I'm never going to speak to him again, etc) - those are the thoughts that being mindful helps us with. They don't do us any good, and the more we dwell on them, the more harmful they become to us and to others.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    I don't think mindfulness is an absence of useful thoughts, so there is no "one vs. the other" problem really. Mindfulness is an awareness of the thought process and having this awareness allows one to distinguish between useful and un-useful thoughts. Having this awareness allows one to practice keeping what is necessary and to let go of the nonsense.
  • the unenlightened mind is like a car with the idle set at 3000rpm, it needs a tune up!!!!!
  • The unmindful mind follows their thoughts to whereever they lead as a hopeless victim. Like being a passenger in a car of a drunk driver on the freeway. You have no control.

    Meanwhile, the mindful mind directs their thoughts. They are in the drivers seat in the middle lane of the freeway. Calm, collected, and are free to get off at the next exit at any time they wish.
  • or in the slow lane behind a semi truck with a "BUDDHA BLESS" bumper sticker
  • edited February 2011
    Mindfulness and thinking are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary, one is mindful of one's thoughts as one is going about thinking them. It's not a question of "either-or", but of "both-and". Mindfulness represents your externally observing self watching you as you go about having your thoughts and doing your work.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Mindfulness is not the state of non-thought. There are many teachers who say mindfulness is bare awareness. Such views are inaccurate.

    Mindfulness means 'recollection' or 'to remember'. It means to keep the Dhamma in the mind.

    In formal meditation, the goal of mindfulness is bring the mind into a state of bare awareness. Mindfulness is not bare awareness itself but that which maintains the mind in a state of bare awareness.

    Out of formal meditation, when we must think, speak or act, mindfulness is also required to keep our thoughts, speech & actions in line with the Dhamma.

    Kind regards

    :)
    One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

    One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

    One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

    One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

    One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

    Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty
    What is sammasati (right mindfulness)?

    Sati means to bear in mind or bring to mind. Sati is the state of recollecting, the state of remembering, the state of non-fading, the state of non-forgetting. Sati means the sati that is a Spiritual Faculty, the sati that is a Spiritual Power, Sammasati, the Sati that is an Enlightenment Factor, that which is a Path Factor and that which is related to the Path.

    This is what is called sammasati.

    [Vbh.105, 286]
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited February 2011
    I agree with Dhamma. I used to have this exact question. I encountered a lot of teachers on Youtube and at Zen Centers who had this teaching method of: you are awareness, there is no i, rid yourself of the concept of i. And I was like well.. dont you use thinking everyday how does that work? For example this guy asked a zen teacher how to approach the programming work he has to do everyday. And the zen master was like.. feel the tapping on the keyboard, feel your butt in the seat. lol.. really useless advice.. the guy was like uh ok.

    A lot of the teachings don't apply to the everyday life, however meditation and mindfulness does.. and all it is going with the flow of reality.. :) and we all learn that being an idiot doesn't help lol, so use the intelligent/useful thoughts!
  • i would think of mindfulness as a state of heightened awareness, in a better position to have useful thoughts, lack of mindfulness is a lot of useless thoughts that are not productive and cause problems etc i think??
  • Mindfulness means 'recollection' or 'to remember'. It means to keep the Dhamma in the mind.

    In formal meditation, the goal of mindfulness is bring the mind into a state of bare awareness. Mindfulness is not bare awareness itself but that which maintains the mind in a state of bare awareness.

    Out of formal meditation, when we must think, speak or act, mindfulness is also required to keep our thoughts, speech & actions in line with the Dhamma.

    Absolutely. My former teacher used to remind us about this in the non-formal context by just saying "mindfulness" as he passed by.

    :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    My teacher doesn't like the term mindfulness because it implies that you are concentrating on an object of awareness indefinitely. She states that the nature of awareness is to focus and diffuse. And that those who say they can concentrate indefinitely are actually losing focus and not realizing. She even says that straining to pay attention constantly can produce negative psychological effects. Concentration is only one factor in meditation that is balanced by others.

    She prefers the term awareness though all terms are only pointing to what is meant in the dharma. You have to find the experience in your own practice and then you know what sutras are referents to.

    I think of mindfulness as 'coming back'. There is a point where you realize that you are thinking about something. For example I might be meditating and I start thinking about my video game character. Until I realize I am thinking I am wholy in the world of video game revery and contemplation.

    At first we think 'oh darn I'll come back to the breath' 'Oh good now I am back'. That is not mindfulness because now you are caught up in thinking you are meditating. Object focus is not mindfulness. The breath is used to develope calm or shamata.

    But that point when I realize that I am thinking of the video game. That is awareness which is meant by mindfulness. It is the ability to step out of one world that you are lost in.

    At that time a space opens up which can be accompanied by agitation or boredom. Anything can open up from that space which is why 'Oh darn I am not on the breath' is only one thing that can open up and heavyiness about that thought is itself a world to get lost in and the heaviness can interferes with mindfulness/awareness.

    The space is shunyata.
  • edited February 2011

    There's definately a difference between experiencing shunyata and experiencing blank zombie-mind though, lol !

    :)

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    Oh yeah I experience zombie mind too... :) :: brains ::

    I refer to shunyata as the capacity to step into a new world. And recognize you are caught. Out of the rut. That none is solid and need be clung to.
  • I see it as just relaxing and letting go....


    ;)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2011
    It is experienced commonly at (most of) our level as 'no big deal' says Pema Chodron in her tape forget which one either 'Pure Meditation' or 'Fear to Fearlessness'

    Sogyal Rinpoche calls it spaciousness and in the context of compassion refers to it as 'being big about it' a common experience.

    I think I experienced this when I had my clothes in the wash. And my brother (visiting) needed to wash his fast to get ready for his plane which was actually not for awhile. He wanted to take my clothes out and wash his quick. I am anal about wash and always conflict with my brother sometimes thinking of himself and not me. But I dropped all that after my knee jerk reaction and said 'ok no problem'. The point isn't that what I did was right or wrong or good communication. The point is I dropped all that past and strong pulls and said 'no problem'.
  • You don't need to worry about losing your mind or something ;)
    I'm not worried about "losing my mind", but I'm often faced with a decision - be mindful of what's going on around me (or, for example, of my bodily sensations) or spend the time thinking. A more subtle decision is whether to focus on the content of my thoughts, or to see as them as "just thoughts". In both cases, the two kinds of activity seem to be both worthwhile, but incompatible - both are worth doing, but I have to chose one.

  • You can be mindful and still have many useful thoughts. In my line of work/study, I have to be thinking *constantly* about my patient,
    I suppose I'm not thinking of that kind of situation - my mental image when I think of this issue is of walking to work: I don't have anything immediate I need to react to, so I could just practice mindfulness of any object, or I could think about something. That's the basic dilemma.
    The thoughts that are not useful to me (I'm so ugly nobody will ever want to be with me, ...
    Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. When the thoughts are useless, it's obviously worth letting them go!
  • Mindfulness IMHO is just paying attention. The object of your attention depends on what you're doing. For instance, if you're driving, mindfulness is paying attention to the road!

    It sounds simple, just paying attention to what you're doing (which may include just sitting and thinking sometimes), but actually our minds like to entertain themselves. I remember a 'Simpsons' cartoon in which Marge demands if Homer is paying attention to her. He assures her he is, but in his thought bubble are dancing clowns. Our minds are a little like that - we should be paying attention but instead we've got a dancing clown show going on in our heads!

    Mindfulness is applying yourself to your task with all effort. Sometimes the task involves conscious thinking. Sometimes it involves pealing potatoes.

    I would recommend Thich Nhat Hahn's book on the subject.
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    edited February 2011
    I'd like to know how some of you reconcile the practice of mindfulness with the practical need for thoughts. Clearly mindfulness is central to Buddhist practice, but conscious thoughts are necessary in everyday life.
    There seems to be this misconception of meditation as a state being void of thoughts. There is a huge difference between mindfulness and mindlessness!
    I would recommend Thich Nhat Hahn's book on the subject.
    I think you need to be a little more specific ;) Many of his books include the topic of mindfulness!
  • False dichotomy. Mindfulness makes one more discerning about what is and what is not a useful thought.
  • Thich Nhat Hanh 'The Miracle of Mindfulness' is largely about mindfulness in meditation.

    'Peace in Every Step: The mindfulness of everyday life' is about extending mindfulness to our daily lives.

  • One doesn't just automatically 'pay attention' without remembering that's what one needs to do, and bringing the awareness back to the here and now.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Out of formal meditation, when we must think, speak or act, mindfulness is also required to keep our thoughts, speech & actions in line with the Dhamma.

    Good observation, though I wonder if you're really talking here about Right Effort, which of course relies on mindfulness?

    P
  • there is a distinction to be made about the difference between concentration and mindfulness. i've heard it described that concentration is sort of like the horsepower that moves the engine of mindfulness...not sure if that clarifies my point at all (can't remember the exact quote!)

    also, i agree that it doesn't have to be either-or. in your example of walking to work, mindfulness allows you to notice your surroundings, etc. as well as notice both the content and general "vibe" of your thoughts.

    a book called "mindfulness in plain english" by bhante henepola gunaratana describes mindfulness as the moment of pre-verbal awareness, before our minds start making judgements and categorizing. meditation then allows for the space to notice those moments before they slip away.
  • It almost seems that whether or not comes down to how useful/intentional the thought is... Is that right? For instance, if I pick up my water bottle for a sip, and start thinking about the design of the bottle and how I could improve it, is that only mindful if I'm an engineer set out to improve hydration?

    Most of what I've read says that when drinking water, I should just drink water, thus I'm not being mindful no matter what my intent or how useful the thought was.
  • being mindful would be to notice your thoughts as thoughts. And notice thoughts about improving water bottles as thoughts about improving water bottles.

    Instead we are often completely lost in thought rather than aware. Does that make sense?
  • edited February 2011
    being mindful would be to notice your thoughts as thoughts. And notice thoughts about improving water bottles as thoughts about improving water bottles.

    Instead we are often completely lost in thought rather than aware. Does that make sense?
    That does make sense. So, mindfulness is just being aware of your thoughts, no matter what they are.

    I guess an academic, as well as most would want to incorporate right concentration, so that he is not merely just watching his thoughts wander. Concentration is what makes them useful. Useful does not make them mindful.
  • Mindfulness is a state of inherent Buddha nature or universal peace-loving kindness, that having the natural function of useful thoughts to benefit all living beings :p
  • If you were lost in thought and someone dropped a tray of dishes and they all broke that would bring you back to mindfulness.
  • Instead we are often completely lost in thought rather than aware. Does that make sense?
    To me, not quite. I understand how to be aware of thoughts as thoughts, to see them arise, and to see them pass away. That's one of the meditation practices I use (along with body awareness and Metta-Bhavana). I can do this in sitting meditation, or (for example) while walking to work. However, when I do that I'm no longer following those thoughts to where they lead.

    E.g in the water bottle example from above, if I am "mindful" in this sense I won't follow the thought about design to a thought about what has driven that design (marketing, legislation, or production costs) and perhaps then to another thought about the factors that shape designs in general.

    This suggests that there is still a decision to be made between "being mindful" and this kind of thinking.

  • Maybe do some research on walking Zen.
  • I am also in doubt about the real meaning of mindfulness... I used to think that I understood what mindfulness really means, but now I am not sure anymore. I generally practice meditation trying to focus on my feelings (like the air flow on my nostrils or on the sound around me) and I also practice yoga. I feel that with my practice I have only developed my concentration and not my mindfulness. Besides this, with my practice I usually become more aware of my thoughts and my feelings. This was supposed to be good, but it isn´t... By becoming more aware, I usually notice more easily my 'bad' thoughts and my 'undesirable' sensations. For instance, if I noticed that my breathing was short, I usually tried to change to a slow and a deep breathing pattern. This cycle usually ended by increasing my aversion to what was going on and my aversion to aversion. Sounds crazy, doesn´t it? What have I done wrong? When I stop my practice, everything becomes 'normal' again... I really feel that the real meditation is to not interfere with anything, just to accept everything that is going on. But I want to practice again. What should I do? How should I behave?
  • In mindfulness meditation the point is to be a mirror. So what is a mirror like? It reflects whatever is in front of it. It doesn't comment or judge. It doesn't even care what is in front of it. An ugly person or a beautiful person (ugly thought, beautiful thought). To the mirror everything is equal and everything is what it is.

    Any kind of comment, good, bad, or even indifferent is the "inner commentator". Get familar with the inner commentator. Don't try to get rid of the inner commentator because that is the inner commentator trying to get rid of itself. Though at times our inner commentator is very wise sounding.

    For example: I sometimes get into a thought and I wake up from it. At that instance my inner commentator goes, "Oh, I need to wake up more to thought, what am I doing wrong?" Well this seems wise, but in actually it isn't. You woke up from your thought spontaneously without any effort from your own. So instead of trying to find how to make that happen more. It is better to have a positive attitude after spontaneously waking up from a thought. You should cultivate thankfulness and a positive attitude, instead of trying to do more things or seem down on yourself. When you view your meditation and things in life in a positive manner, you are telling your body/mind that those are important to you. While this seems egotistical or weird, it actually helps.

    Don't ever listen to your inner commentator. Though it can say nice things, it can also say negative things. It can cause you to doubt, etc. Your inner commentator is never valid.

    So the purpose of mindfulness is to watch. Like you're watching a movie. Watch your feelings, thoughts, body, etc. One can anchor using the breathe, but you can also place mindfulness on other places that are intriguing. Say like an itch or a nice sensation on your hands. Just watch and if it goes away, then go back to the breath.

    That is mindfulness meditation. There is nothing to do. It is a stating of being here in the moment and just watching things happen.
  • This is not to say that all thinking should be thrown out. Our ability to think is a gift and a curse. With mindfulness mediation, we learn to respond to things rather than reacting. With this ability to respond, we now have a choice in every thing we do and think. We can choose to ignore other thoughts and choose to use other thoughts.

    Eventually you will take this practice of mindfulness throughout your whole human experience.
    There is nothing to gain, but the freedom to choose how to respond wisely in the situation of the moment.
  • Understanding and experiencing mindfulness meditation is a great teacher. You learn that there really isn't a such thing as a bad meditation because even "bad" meditation can be mindfully watched lol. You can watch how the "doer" manifests. You can watch hidden emotions pop up.

    The point is to let everything as it is. Just reflect it all. Let all good and bad stay. Never reject or accept. Just be.

    Sorry if I sound like a broken record.

    With love.
  • Thats a good question. I don't know your experience of a waterbottle. Some times I lose my thoughts in something like that. There is meditation where you observe your thoughts rather than an object such as the breath. That is what I am talking about. You mindfully investigate design elements.

    How do you think the buddha constructed the dharma if he was continuously taking the breath as object of his attention?
  • From what I've read, the mindfulness and watching thoughts is the best way to stop the mind from leaning. When you become lost in thought and see that, the thought fizzles out. It's been working for me to drive out some useless thought wandering.

    It also seems to work the other way. When I see myself engaged in an interesting, potentially useful thought, it's hard to follow it to complete fruition.. It also sort of fizzles.

    Perhaps thats just my lack of experience and concentration though.
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