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Appropriateness
How high do you set your personal level of what is appropriate? Do you always adhere to the same level of appropriateness, or does it change with present company?
I have seen a few posts related to how things that used to be viewed different would now be considered acceptable behavour, and was just wondering how everyone tended to handle that?
In my case I tend to adapt my behavour to who I am with. It's acceptable to do some things with my friends that I would never do at my Grandmother's for example. In our society, some even previously offensive ideas, words, and gestures are considered socially acceptable.
When my Dad is around my daughter I often find myself trying to remind him to curb the use of the "big people words", most of which have four letters. But then, my Dad was Navy, and they mean it when they say "swearing like a sailor". When not with my daughter, the words don't offend me so much. I have learned it is a part of him that's never going to chance and I accept it.
When with my friends... you'd think we hated each other the way we play around. Vulgar speech is not uncommon, and over time I have loosened up a little with them because for them, it is appropriate and not harming anyone or anything. It was more inappropriate for me to be uptight about a few vulgar words than it was for me to engage along with them, if that makes any sense.
I guess what I am saying is... when we are talking about something such as Right Speech, does that Right Speech change? We think before we say, we try to use words that will not hurt anyone else... so then doesn't that change based on what other peoples' views of what is appropriate is exactly?
I have seen a few posts related to how things that used to be viewed different would now be considered acceptable behavour, and was just wondering how everyone tended to handle that?
In my case I tend to adapt my behavour to who I am with. It's acceptable to do some things with my friends that I would never do at my Grandmother's for example. In our society, some even previously offensive ideas, words, and gestures are considered socially acceptable.
When my Dad is around my daughter I often find myself trying to remind him to curb the use of the "big people words", most of which have four letters. But then, my Dad was Navy, and they mean it when they say "swearing like a sailor". When not with my daughter, the words don't offend me so much. I have learned it is a part of him that's never going to chance and I accept it.
When with my friends... you'd think we hated each other the way we play around. Vulgar speech is not uncommon, and over time I have loosened up a little with them because for them, it is appropriate and not harming anyone or anything. It was more inappropriate for me to be uptight about a few vulgar words than it was for me to engage along with them, if that makes any sense.
I guess what I am saying is... when we are talking about something such as Right Speech, does that Right Speech change? We think before we say, we try to use words that will not hurt anyone else... so then doesn't that change based on what other peoples' views of what is appropriate is exactly?
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Comments
Many DO "cut the suit according to the cloth"....
But in my opinion, - and it is just MY opinion - for me, it is important that what you see from me, is what you get. Consistency, and Honesty, are important in my View.... While the outward demeanour may change, according to the circumstances I'm in, my study of the Eightfold Path has taught me that no matter whom I'm with, or what we're doing, I must Consistently be True to myself.
Let others swear, if they wish.... over time it will be quietly noticed, that I don't.... let others mock and gossip if they wish.... Over time, it will be quietly noticed, that I don't.....let others criticise, judge and condemn, if they wish....over time, it will be quietly noticed that I don't....
My partner will tell you that one of my bywords is 'Dignity'. I ask myself constantly, 'is this dignified? If so-and-so could see my behaviour now, would they be critical?' Not that I seek the approval of others, but that I want my behaviour to be consistent, and to become the embodiment of what I believe.
I have not perfected the above techniques - not by a long chalk. .But I also practise Right Effort.....
Thank you.
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
As my teacher once said, "If you can't control your mouth, there's no way you can hope to control your mind.' This is why right speech is so important in day-to-day practice.
Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all).
Notice the focus on intent: this is where the practice of right speech intersects with the training of the mind. Before you speak, you focus on why you want to speak. This helps get you in touch with all the machinations taking place in the committee of voices running your mind. If you see any unskillful motives lurking behind the committee's decisions, you veto them. As a result, you become more aware of yourself, more honest with yourself, more firm with yourself. You also save yourself from saying things that you'll later regret. In this way you strengthen qualities of mind that will be helpful in meditation, at the same time avoiding any potentially painful memories that would get in the way of being attentive to the present moment when the time comes to meditate.
In positive terms, right speech means speaking in ways that are trustworthy, harmonious, comforting, and worth taking to heart. When you make a practice of these positive forms of right speech, your words become a gift to others. In response, other people will start listening more to what you say, and will be more likely to respond in kind. This gives you a sense of the power of your actions: the way you act in the present moment does shape the world of your experience. You don't need to be a victim of past events.
For many of us, the most difficult part of practicing right speech lies in how we express our sense of humor. Especially here in America, we're used to getting laughs with exaggeration, sarcasm, group stereotypes, and pure silliness — all classic examples of wrong speech. If people get used to these sorts of careless humor, they stop listening carefully to what we say. In this way, we cheapen our own discourse. Actually, there's enough irony in the state of the world that we don't need to exaggerate or be sarcastic. The greatest humorists are the ones who simply make us look directly at the way things are.
Expressing our humor in ways that are truthful, useful, and wise may require thought and effort, but when we master this sort of wit we find that the effort is well spent. We've sharpened our own minds and have improved our verbal environment. In this way, even our jokes become part of our practice: an opportunity to develop positive qualities of mind and to offer something of intelligent value to the people around us.
So pay close attention to what you say — and to why you say it. When you do, you'll discover that an open mouth doesn't have to be a mistake.
Because in order to think, speak and behave appropriately, we first have to be conscious - to be Mindful - of what we intend to think, say and do. And we not only have to be Mindful of the appropriateness, but we also need to be aware of the consequences of our Mindfulness - of the appropriateness - of what we inwardly and outwardly express.
Being Aware, being Mindful, means that eventually, the Appropriateness will take care of itself.....
Naturally, I have all of the above off to a fine Art..... Now, I just have to work on the Modesty angle.....
While I agree it is inappropriate to tell the fart joke, is it inappropriate to laugh at the fart joke someone else has told?
There was a comedian on British TV last night (Jimmy Carr) and out of ten jokes, I found maybe two funny....
If you laugh at an INappropriate joke, then ok. Just don't pass it on.....
Palzang
Then think of it this way: Is it skillful or unskillful?
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Rajagaha, at the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Ground.
At that time Ven. Ràhula was staying at the Mango Stone. Then the Blessed One, arising from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to where Ven. Ràhula was staying at the Mango Stone. Ven. Ràhula saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, set out a seat and water for washing the feet. The Blessed One sat down on the seat set out and, having sat down, washed his feet. Ven. Ràhula, bowing down to the Blessed One, sat down to one side.
Then the Blessed One, having left a little bit of the remaining water in the water dipper, said to Ven. Ràhula, "Ràhula, do you see this little bit of remaining water left in the water dipper?"
"Yes sir."
"That's how little of a contemplative [2] there is in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie."
Having tossed away the little bit of remaining water, the Blessed One said to Ven. Ràhula, "Ràhula, do you see how this little bit of remaining water is tossed away?"
"Yes, sir."
"Whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is tossed away just like that.
Having turned the water dipper upside down, the Blessed One said to Ven. Ràhula, "Ràhula, do you see how this water dipper is turned upside down?"
"Yes, sir."
"Whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is turned upside down just like that."
Having turned the water dipper right-side up, the Blessed One said to Ven. Ràhula, "Ràhula, do you see how empty and hollow this water dipper is?"
"Yes, sir."
"Whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is empty and hollow just like that.
"Ràhula, it's like a royal elephant: immense, pedigreed, accustomed to battles, its tusks like chariot poles. Having gone into battle, it uses its forefeet and hind feet, its forequarters and hindquarters, its head and ears and tusks and tail, but will simply hold back its trunk. The elephant trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has not given up its life to the king.' But when the royal elephant... having gone into battle, uses its forefeet and hind feet, its forequarters and hindquarters, its head and ears and tusks and tail and his trunk, the trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has given up its life to the king. There is nothing it will not do.'
"The same holds true with anyone who feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie: There is no evil, I tell you, he will not do. Thus, Ràhula, you should train yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest.'
"How do you construe this, Ràhula: What is a mirror for?"
"For reflection, sir."
"In the same way, Ràhula, bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts are to be done with repeated reflection.
"Whenever you want to perform a bodily act, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily act I want to perform -- would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with happy consequences, happy results, then any bodily act of that sort is fit for you to do.
"While you are performing a bodily act, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily act I am doing -- is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to affliction of others, or both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.
"Having performed a bodily act, you should reflect on it.... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities.
"Whenever you want to perform a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I want to perform -- would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then any verbal act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then any verbal act of that sort is fit for you to do.
"While you are performing a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I am doing -- is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.
"Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it.... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities.
"Whenever you want to perform a mental act, you should reflect on it: 'This mental act I want to perform -- would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful mental act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful mental act with painful consequences, painful results, then any mental act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful mental action with happy consequences, happy results, then any mental act of that sort is fit for you to do.
"While you are performing a mental act, you should reflect on it: 'This mental act I am doing -- is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful mental act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.
"Having performed a mental act, you should reflect on it.... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel distressed, ashamed, and disgusted with it. Feeling distressed... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities.
"Ràhula, all those priests and contemplatives in the course of the past who purified their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way.
"All those priests and contemplatives in the course of the future who will purify their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, will do it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way.
"All those priests and contemplatives at present who purify their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, do it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way.
"Therefore, Ràhula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts through repeated reflection.' That is how you should train yourself."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ràhula delighted in the Blessed One's words.
- Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta: MN 61
I think intention is a big part of whether something is "right". Living by the 8FP does not mean that I lose my sense of play, humor and start taking myslef too serious. Fart jokes, so what? It seems that that kind of thing is more matter of social taste, not compassion.
I live many things that are not convetionally thought of as right action, speech etc. But I honestly think if it is done between simialar thinking, equal, and appreciative people, then cool. "Appropriate" is a changing bar, moving all the time.
Or if it is to confront another's biases and aversions, then I am ok with it many tiomes as well. If my being 'me' shakes someone's sense of comofrt, and "me" is not harmful, then that is just soemthing that may be needed to be acccpeted.
I find when I am attentive to my practice I am kinder and more helpful generally. So that is the best check on our potty mouths and minds. Thinking about all this too much outside of the situations they occur can become and circular mental thing. It depends on teh situation and the people. There ar eno universal rules
When I meditate regularly and pay attention to all the yukky and wonderful and boring stuff (rare be in this zone) then I find I am naturally more forgiving, content and kind, without effort too much.
But I have to work at that. I am no bodhisatva and am prone to pettiness liek the next one
Am I rambling?
I think one of the things that is often forgotten about the EightFold Path, is perhaps one of the most important...
Right Effort.
Following the Eightfold Path is not simply a question of trying.... That does nothing.
It's like dropping your keys, and then 'trying' to pick them up. Not Actually doing so, but just 'trying'.... it's impossible!
(This is a wonderful example I saw described elsewhere, and I think it merits being repeated. It's such a good illustration of 'Trying' isn't 'doing'!)
So Effort means, "You either 'Do' or you don't."
And Mindfulness is the best way to keep us alert as to the level and quality of our Effort.
It's no good saying, 'Well, I'll try, but heck, if I slip up, shucks - so what? I can always try again tomorrow!"
Remember that even the Karma of wasted and half-hearted - inappropriate - Effort is something we carry on with us. So Mindfulness and Effort work as much hand in hand as all the other six Spokes of the Wheel. Letting ourselves off the hook is fine, providing we know we were doing our best, but failed.
Effort - like View, Intention, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Awareness and Meditation - is of vital importance, and needs to be constant.
I disagree somewhat. I do think there are some that say "try" but really use it as a total cop out. But I do beleive here are many who eanestly try to change behavior etc and miss the mark. It takes much practice. In those cases, I do not not see it as absolute as you do.
I think that karma is neutral. So a hurtful action hurts. But effort changes effects to me somewhat. It is the karma of a caring person who is consciously trying and "tries" to acept responsibility. That chanegs the effects/consequences.
I see your analogy of trying to pick up keys relative. If one has an injury and tries to stoop down but cannot etc...That is what I refer to . Not just the intenetion but intention with action.
Uh oh...
I think Jason meant this for me....
-bf
No, it was for both of us! But I was glad that he posted what he did. I was reading something about the Eightfold Path that suggested that one start with the morality trainings (Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood). Since I could be considered a smart aleck of long standing, I thought Right Speech would be the best place to start. I don't know if you can relate, but when you've just said something that isn't meant to be anything but silly and everyone in the conversation looks at you like you are retarded, then you know it wasn't skillful or even funny. That happens to me more than I care to admit to. But when my teacher did it the other night, I could have melted into the floor. Not that he doesn't realize that I'm a human being and a beginner at this, but you try to be on good behavior at temple. Well, try try again with the intent of doing it more skillfully.
Jerbear,
Remember the comment I made about taking a pooh-pooh on your coffee table during the middle of a family discussion?
I "think" I've managed to removed those types of faux pas from my repitoire...
<keeping fingers crossed this is true!>
-bf
It's interesting in trying to speak more skillfully how many times something smart alecky comes to mind. How often I want to say something off the cuff when I can say something more appropriate. In just the few days I've been doing it, it's been quite eye opening. Will keep you updated. Not that I expect perfection at this ever, but plan on working at it the rest of my days.
Laughter and humor is one of the brighter things in life. I know that I have a group of friends that, ritually, turn on one of our fallen comrades like a pack of wild dogs - given the right circumstances. And we all laugh and have a good time about it - cuz we know our day has come and will most likely come again.
But, I've been through situations with these friends where, when the chips were down, they came through. And I've had the opportunity to reciprocate in helping - so it's all good.
I think appropriateness has to be determined by the crowd, the situation, the circumstances, the relationship, etc. My partner likes it when I call her "my biatch" - cuz it's a term of endearment between us. Some people might get upset when hearing that sort of term used on another person - but it's something positive between us.
Laughter is silliness. Painting can be silliness. Walking out into the fresh air and just smiling and enjoying the beauty of a clean, clear morning - is really... just silliness. It neither reaps nor sows - but the benefits can be amazing.
I think all things should be done in moderation. It does no good to never jokes and be somber "Mr. Buddhist" all the time - nor does it do any good to be the fool all the time.
-bf
Love reading you, folks. This thread is really interesting, just put in my two-cents worth to bookmark it. Have nothing to add that could touch the excellent contributions of federica and Elohim.
I read that through again, and Thannisaro Bhikku hit it on the head. I may right the main points on a little card and read it a few times a day.
Also, I was talking with my teacher about reading the suttas, and he really wanted me to start reading the Dhammapadda first. So maybe in a couple of months we could start discussing the suttas. I know I've learned a great deal from TNH's, "The Heart of the Buddah's Teachings". It may be a doorway for me and others to get farther into study.
I've been away mostly due to holidays with the family and handling some personal issues but am back now and finally back to some form of routine. Even if it is a slightly disorganized routine.
The other day, my daughter asks me if she can go to church with her friend and the girl's family. I went over to speak with the mother to find out what time she would be back and all the important stuff like that and of course she invited me to come along as well.
I politely declined, at which point she asks me why of course. I reply than I am not Christian, and I get the funniest look I have ever seen to be honest... (Keep in mind I live in a part of the USA known as the "Bible Belt") and so I proceed to politely explain that though my views are different I do not mind that my daughter attends church as I wish for her to choose on her own what is best for her spiritually.
"Well, do you believe in Jesus?" - My response is "Yes, I believe he was a very good man and is an excellent role model."
She didn't ask anything further than that, and hasn't since. But thankfully she also doesn't seem as standoffish as I had worried she might become when she found out.
What do you all think? I could have avoided the question all together, but I didn't want to lie. It's not uncommon for people in this neighborhood to shun my family for the fact that a couple of us aren't exactly like everyone else. Around here my biggest fear is that my daughter will get picked on because of the way that I believe, but I am unsure of how to handle that uissue should it arise.
I think that your reply anent Jesus was about as neutral as you could make it, although anything other than total abnegation will offend the fanatic. I also quite understand your fear for your daughter. The best we can do for our children is to prepare them for the inevitable confrontations, be they about physical characteristics or cultural difference. And we do this best by modelling behaviour with integrity and compassion.
But since watching a programme on UK TV Channel 4 (I'm banging on about it here a bit, so I apologise!) my viewpoint and opinion on Christianity and Religion as practised by Amricans has become somewhat jaundiced....
I didn't realise quite how fanatical some Americans have become regarding their own faih, and that of other people...
There are factions of Americans who, because of their reluctance to commit to Christianity, or their frank disbelief in God, are having to meet in secret, to converse and socialise with like-minded people - !
The fact seems to be that if you openly admit to not being a Christian, or to not believing in God or being a church-goer, the social penalty of hate, ostrascism and open hostility from your own community is a very real and major threat....
Whatever happened to 'freedom of Speech' ?
It has always been conditional!
If people care not to be Christian, fine. But I would hope they would have SOMETHING...be it Judaism, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist...I don't care...whatever works for them. But a religion teaches morals, values, compassion, etc. It scares me that atheist don't have this and are not passing anything down to their children.
I appreciate how you, Critter, allow your daughter to be exposed to various religions so she at some point, can make her own choice....
I think you misunderstand the humanistic atheist position, Sharpie. These are not immoral, antisocial people. On the contrary: each person is challenged to establish and verify their own ethic without relying on being told what to do, how to think, etc.
Of course, it is challenging to those who try to obey the 600-odd 'laws' in Leviticus, or the somewhat confused rules of the various Christian churches. There is no outside authority to impose a code, other than the culture, society and context. Children have to be taught discernment and judgment early. Their moral education is based on the challenge of being a human animal in a human society, condemned to live with ambiguity and uncertainty - and be aware of it.
I have spoken and written for years in favour of a humanistic approach to Christian ethics because Jesus only gave moral guidelines which are internal, rather than rules to follow or break. We have struggled for decades for good education for all. We teach our young to examine ideas, sift facts, learn methods of criticism and proof. Sometimes we fail to examine what outcome we hope from all this effort and all the resources poured into the task. Do we want something new? Why is education such an important element of our Western culture? I suggest that we want to raise a new generation of children who can think for themselves, make choices based on evidence and a full appreciation of results, live respectfully and at peace with their neighbours, and capable of productive and tolerant living, well and happy.
This may, however, not be the only aspects of the educated person. If we teach children to challenge authority, why are we surprised if they do so? If, at the same time, we attempt to turn them into automata, hypnotising them with rules, what are we to expect when they begin to wake up?
This is not a call for a return to the days of rote learning and regimented schooling which produced the industrial proletariat, it is an appeal to understand that the development of a human-based ethic is more and more importan. The old, "God"-based, rule-driven ethical aspect of religion is no longer authoritative for many. By insisting that the practice of compassion and the rule structure of a particular group are inextricably linked does no favour to either.
HHDL says all this much better than I can, in his Ethics For The New Millennium.
As a student of mysticisms and a lover of the manifestations of the religious experience described in religion, myth and legend, I am troubled by what I am am seeing. We see it her, on New Buddhist. We experience it in our own lives: the moral authority of the religions (and I include, for the sake of argument, Buddhism in its prescriptive aspect) is being questioned or aggressively asserted. When the religion is judged - and, often, rejected - on the basis of its legalistic structure, the mystery aspects and formulations get, first, neglected, and then thrown out with the rulebook.
Religion needs to let go of the idea that it has a privileged take on morality or a special pattern of "perfect" behaviour and get back to what it is really about: the mystery - even if the size of that mystery may appear to be shrinking.
The name escapes me right now, but there was a man in California, an atheist lawyer, who fought to have his daughter not not say 'under God' while stating the Pledge to the flag. He wanted it taken out of the Pledge completely. It's a fine line: The US is a prodominately Christian. Isn't this 'debate' taking the rights of Christians? But to leave it as is, people will be offended.
I am simply posing the question...and am interested in peoples' various rules.
At this point, I myself am spiritually confused. I am embracing the Buddhist path and see its effects in my daily life. However, being raised a Christian (Catholic), I find it difficult to 'let go'.
Sorry for rambling..these are thoughts that I ponder, (the one I have to bounce them off of is working in New Orleans, gee... I miss him).
Any thoughts you have to share, I greatly appreciate...
Sharpiegirl
Om Mani Padme Hung
Religion is not necessary to live a good life. (paraphrased)
"On the contrary: each person is challenged to establish and verify their own ethic without relying on being told what to do, how to think, etc."
However, I see more that do not establish any ethics...I'm quite sure it has something to do with media exploitations...and revolt in a negative fashion. However I do believe there are more ethical atheist than non.
I very much agree with your view of the 'internal' guidelines of Jesus' teachings. Those are the readings/teaching that I referred to in various posts. It is the rules that I have been taught to follow that have turned me off, so to speak, to my Catholism. And I agree that this is precisely what is not working for many people...in the meatime they are not focusing on the FAITH aspect.
As a teacher of young children, I try to provide all points of view rather than the majority rules idea. Rote memorization rarly works and is ineffective. I try to let them make their own choices based on information and facts. I often feel like a salmon going up stream with other teachers and parents doing the opposite.
Thanks for your insight. As I reach out and seek truth, I appreciate your sharing thoughts with me.
And salmon swim upstream to spawn: to produce the young who guarantee the continuation of the species!
When I was teaching "Religion", we used to thread our way through stories that told people how to behave and where they came from - and noticed how each different member of the family of faiths taught compassion.
As it wasn't appropriate, it may be a good thing that the file can't be found!
call it an example of impermanence!
'dang!!'
Thanks guys. My biggest fear is not for me, but that they would ostrasize my daughter over it, who is wanting to go and experience spirituality... where I try to nurture her need for this others are pushing her away because of my views being different. This is greatly upsetting to me.
The presenter found it very bizarre that when children are born into a family, they are automatically taken as, or assumed to be of the same religion as their parents... But nobody would ever say that their children were Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives or Labour party members.
A young person learns about politics through the newspapers, the media and eventually through studies at school, college or university.
Only at eighteen, after study, debate and enquiry, are they considered mature enough to be given the vote.
Why not then, the same with religion?
I hadn't thought of this before, but it's actually very logical.
Perhaps another point here, Brigid, is that you did have some exposure to aspects of the Christian way which is such an integral part of our culture. I have often worried about the loss of understanding of context when we distance our children too far from their heritage. As a teacher, I had the strange notion that my job was to pass on such inheritance. Without it, most European literature and art become incomprehensible, barbaric even.
As soon, however, as a child begins to question or to be too obedient, they should be taken away from any institution aiming at brainwashing or conditioning.
I became a-religious at that age but definitely not a-spiritual. I even became a Jesus freak when in my teens and later studied Christianity for two years under a wonderful nun called Sister Duffin. If I had known then what I came to know later I would have gone to the Jesuits. It is still my hope to meet a Jesuit priest up for a long conversation. LOL
I will never reject Catholicism outright. I may disagree with many doctrines and ideas, but I still have very deep and beautiful memories of sitting in the warmth of St. Patrick's Cathedral in Montreal as a child, listening to the sounds of the latin mass, smelling the exotic aromas of incense surrounded by all that dark, intricately carved, highly polished wood. There is also a heartbreakingly beautiful life sized pieta in that cathedral. My favourite parts of the mass were the greeting of those around your pew with hand shakes and the collection plate. As the youngest I got to put our money in it every Sunday.
But as I grew, the comforting trappings were not enough. I was intent on living my beliefs like a saint (I was obsessed with books about the lives of the saints) but it seemed to me that I was being offered no real instruction on how to do that.
Of course, I grew up and began my secular life in earnest! LOL. But I knew it was only a matter of time before I would have to do what I had originally intended and get down to work. And as an adult, after much study, I knew Christianity was not my path. But to this day I believe had my father insisted I continue the Catholic path, I would have lost my true opportunity with Buddhism. ]
But you are right. I had a good education in Christianity and, to a lesser extent, latin which was absolutely essential to my understanding of western history and politics, in which I took my degree. It was also essential for my understanding of western literature, poetry and philosophy.
Sorry for rambling like this. You make me feel like talking, Simon.
Growing up I would question, I was told...'because that's the way it is' or it's based on faith, that's how we believe'.
This was coming from two adults that were told the same thing as children (if they even asked). When my parents grew up, they were taugh NOT to ask...'just do as your told'.
My brothers never asked they just stopped practicing anything.
My parents don't know quite what to say now when I start talking about it.
I see six neices and nephews attending Mass and religious ed. but in their minds...it's because they have to.:werr: