Perception - how do you know what is truth?

Supertramp

Greetings,

Is perception truth? When I see something and experience something, this is the truth at that point in time.
How about when I see something at a later point in time and I've acquired a new viewpoint, I experience the same thing in another way. I experience something "different" but then at that time is it also the truth. Just a different truth. Yet the only truth.

For example some people might already have noticed this, my nickname comes from the book/movie "Into the Wild".
The first time I saw the movie, I experienced it as getting rid of attachment to materialistic things, freedom. You can be happy without materialistic property.
The second time I saw the movie, the ending got more important to me "Happiness only real when shared with others".
Now I've been thinking about that last quote and doubting the truth of that, eventhough it seemed the truth the last time I saw that movie.

I know, I think too much.

Jeffrey

Two different samadhis. Impermanence.

ShiftPlusOne

Depends which truth you're talking about. The Truth™? Objective truth? Subjective truth? Inter-subjective truth?

"When I see something and experience something, this is the truth at that point in time. "
There's no need to label it as truth, it's simply what you are experiencing.

federica

to my mind, I have only found two truths to be absolutely, irrevocably undeniable:

the (composite) 4 Noble Truths, and - you're born and you die.

Everything else is perception.

Jeffrey

We perceive something and then we get lost in it. A thought or a mood. And then eventually we come back. When we are in that world sometimes we say "I don't like this I don't want it" and then we suffer. Eventually we come back and notice that it is a perception and there is a penetration or marriage with that perception which consumes it and we step out of that world.

The suffering is real in the sense that we need to get out of it. But nothing is lost by getting caught up in perceptions. We have nothing and we gain or lose nothing by getting invested or detached from them.

The only important thing is to relieve suffering, but suffering is relative to a context via dependent origination rather than a conceptual generalization. Suffering is like pornography you know it when you see it. Which is not to say that scripture cannot open your mind to how to practice or even view suffering. Or upadesha pointing out instructions. Those may be helpful too.

This speach does not help at avoiding suffering. It can only stimulate thought and I hope arouse curiosity to experiment on the cushion or otherwise.

Jeffrey

Perceptions can be the insights but they are not the end of the story ever. Insight is the only liberation. But its not like BAM end of story I am enlightened. Insights are impermanent AND liberating.

For example you might see this good thing about a friend you can trust. A. Then you see another message that leads you to believe that something about them is untrustworthy. B.

If B is true it doesn't necessarily invalidate A. And if you don't open to the freshness you will stay stuck to either and you won't notice what is happening and you will be frustrated because its not going how you are attached to.

fivebells

What would it mean, for something to be truth? What would it mean for something to be true? You can't hope to answer the question in the OP until you have fairly precise answers for these questions.

Jeffrey

It doesn't mean anything conceptually. Truth points to direct seeing. I could say an experience? Practice?

Supertramp

Two different samadhis. Impermanence.

I realise the impermanence of these perceptions ofcourse, but sometimes they have a big influence on my state of mind (like you say in a later post - get lost in it, changes the mood, etc).

Depends which truth you're talking about. The Truth™? Objective truth? Subjective truth? Inter-subjective truth?

"When I see something and experience something, this is the truth at that point in time. "
There's no need to label it as truth, it's simply what you are experiencing.

Hmmm yeah I guess it depends on the definition. But to me when I experience something and I (again label it ) find it to be true, I call it the truth. In the end I'm guessing it's always a subjective truth.

We perceive something and then we get lost in it. A thought or a mood. And then eventually we come back. When we are in that world sometimes we say "I don't like this I don't want it" and then we suffer. Eventually we come back and notice that it is a perception and there is a penetration or marriage with that perception which consumes it and we step out of that world.

The suffering is real in the sense that we need to get out of it. But nothing is lost by getting caught up in perceptions. We have nothing and we gain or lose nothing by getting invested or detached from them.

The only important thing is to relieve suffering, but suffering is relative to a context via dependent origination rather than a conceptual generalization. Suffering is like pornography you know it when you see it. Which is not to say that scripture cannot open your mind to how to practice or even view suffering. Or upadesha pointing out instructions. Those may be helpful too.

This speach does not help at avoiding suffering. It can only stimulate thought and I hope arouse curiosity to experiment on the cushion or otherwise.

Very helpful post, the fact that I made this discussion was the first step to realising what you just said.
However, I feel that it is a dangerous practice to experiment with the "hold" perceptions have over us because if we take a wrong turn we can end up as somebody who doesn't care at all about what he perceives. I guess the same applies here as it does to emotions, don't cling and don't reject.

This thread has helped me notice that I still look for answers and wisdom from other people, books, movies, etc. while I should just perceive these and find the true answers within myself. Obviously other people or works (like books and movies) can guide me to these answers but I have to find them myself. I've realised this for a while now but I guess I'm still not living up to this.

Perceptions can be the insights but they are not the end of the story ever. Insight is the only liberation. But its not like BAM end of story I am enlightened. Insights are impermanent AND liberating.

For example you might see this good thing about a friend you can trust. A. Then you see another message that leads you to believe that something about them is untrustworthy. B.

If B is true it doesn't necessarily invalidate A. And if you don't open to the freshness you will stay stuck to either and you won't notice what is happening and you will be frustrated because its not going how you are attached to.

Also very helpful, I shouldn't be attached to one "truth" or perception.

to my mind, I have only found two truths to be absolutely, irrevocably undeniable:

the (composite) 4 Noble Truths, and - you're born and you die.

Everything else is perception.

But how much stock do you put in perception?

What would it mean, for something to be truth? What would it mean for something to be true? You can't hope to answer the question in the OP until you have fairly precise answers for these questions.

Long before I started to get interested in Buddhism I saw this quote somewhere:
"Truth is an event and only through experience can the veracity of the truth be verified," William James

Does that answer those questions?

Lostie

So the hindrance to insights is attachment to both view A and B.

And to liberate is to get unstuck of view A and B. But how?

Perceptions can be the insights but they are not the end of the story ever. Insight is the only liberation. But its not like BAM end of story I am enlightened. Insights are impermanent AND liberating.

For example you might see this good thing about a friend you can trust. A. Then you see another message that leads you to believe that something about them is untrustworthy. B.

If B is true it doesn't necessarily invalidate A. And if you don't open to the freshness you will stay stuck to either and you won't notice what is happening and you will be frustrated because its not going how you are attached to.

Supertramp

So the hindrance to insights is attachment to both view A and B.

And to liberate is to get unstuck of view A and B. But how?

So truth (in the example about a person) isn't the sum of all experiences either. In the example of Jeffrey, a person isn't the sum of his actions either (so it's not A, not B and not A and . Because that would mean there would be such a thing as a permanent person. Even worse, a permanent person defined by a set number of events.

But how far should the perception of these experiences lead us in realising what kind of person he is? Surely A and B influence how we should perceive this person and based on these perceptions be careful to trust or distrust him.

A few weeks ago I saw a House M.D. episode about a person with a 100% functional memory, and she defined the trustworthyness of people (or how good or bad a person is) by the sum of their actions. She did good tings A, B, C, D and she did bad things E, F, G, H, I. A-D < E-I thus she is a bad person.

Jeffrey

Lostie it just happens. When it does happens ego cuts in and says I did it. And then you say I want that again. And then you suffer again because you create the world where you don't have what you want. And then that collapses and you feel insight and then it repeats.

The A,B,C,D is too confusing. You can't just switch to omniscience. I certainly am not there. It feels a little like molasses. And overwhelm and fear to me. And all the emotions: anger etc..

The only reason to hear what I said was to get curious and thats what my teacher said. Maybe I am bored already haha. Eventually I'll get the clarity and then I'll say I did it and ego grasp it.

Until that wears out and I am enlightened.

Jeffrey

When we drive a car only the foreground sees the road. In the background is things like I have a body I could die I can control the car I am going somewhere. We have a lot of stuff on board.

federica

to my mind, I have only found two truths to be absolutely, irrevocably undeniable:

the (composite) 4 Noble Truths, and - you're born and you die.

Everything else is perception.

But how much stock do you put in perception?

Very little. They're just personal opinionated perceptions and as such, subject to change.

ThailandTom

Perception is an illusion, our 5 senses perceive a reality in existence, but it is an illusion. As ignorant unenlightened people, we see the world in a delusional manner through perception, seeing, smelling, tasting, they are all merely electrical neurological signals. As fede stated, the 4 noble truths speak of a good truth, the truth of suffering.

Jeffrey

Lostie, sort of easing up and letting it happen helps. Letting go. But its not force. Its like letting yourself fall asleep. You create a good environment and then it happens.

But like I say there are so many different A B C D going on and they all come abide and go. But their message comes in a clarity and then we try to grasp it and ride it 'forever'. But new insight needs to come.

We align with 'space' eventually, but who wants just space? There has to be the motions and insights. Heart.

Lostie

Kind of scary with just a "it just happens" to cling on...:)

Or can I conceptualise it and label it as "intuition" in lay terms?

Lostie it just happens. When it does happens ego cuts in and says I did it. And then you say I want that again. And then you suffer again because you create the world where you don't have what you want. And then that collapses and you feel insight and then it repeats.

ThailandTom

It is complex and simple a the same time is it not. You create your world in a way, the way you think, react to what happens, the thoughts you have, it is your world, your universe within your mind. Everything external is a mystery, EVERYTHING is inside your brain.

If you crave or attach, you will suffer. If you let go and accept every moment for what it is, you will not suffer. Smile if you fall over, I did today and it helped. I was going from Thailand to Myanmar for my visa stamp and there was maybe 10 people in the boat, all of different nationalities. We got 5 minutes into our journey and I realised they forgot to give me a departure stamp on my passport, so we had to turn back. After I got my stamp and hurried back to the boat, I trip in front of everybody. I got up and laughed. This in turn engaged a long conversation with 2 people who I had never met, one from Morocco and one from Russia.

You create your world, perception in my opinion is not a truth, understanding that it is merely a perception is a truth.

Supertramp

Very little. They're just personal opinionated perceptions and as such, subject to change.

But is having an opinion a bad thing? Surely people around you appreciate you having an opinion, as do we here on this messageboard. How do you know you're not gonna put too little stock into your perceptions and become someone without any opinions?

Perception is an illusion, our 5 senses perceive a reality in existence, but it is an illusion. As ignorant unenlightened people, we see the world in a delusional manner through perception, seeing, smelling, tasting, they are all merely electrical neurological signals. As fede stated, the 4 noble truths speak of a good truth, the truth of suffering.

But you need those perceptions to become enlightened, it is through perception that you can once realise (you have) satori in zen buddhism and/or enlightenment (not as familiar with this), isn't it?

ThailandTom

I am not too booked up on zen buddhism, but yes you obviously need some senses to become enlightened or practice buddhism, but you must not attach to them. The buddha stated one should neither strive or find a taste delicious, or find it disgusting. The same for ever sense, the middle way. You should see everything as empty, as an illusion. A nun I was listening to once said that with dependent origination, she started but saying to herself everyday that life is a dream, an illusion. Nothing is at it seems

Jeffrey

Lostie,

Do you find that when you are suffering somehow that you can make it go away? We can distract ourselves but being aware of it just makes it worse. Like focusing on the pain in our arm its better to just distract ourselves.

But eventually it goes away. But not because we forced it.

There IS a whole lot you can do. There is a full buddhist path. Sit and open. Open to reality or buddha or the heart or whatever you think. That helps. But it only happens when it happens. Craving things to be different just creates a world of not having, as I said which is just a thought. That itself we eventually wake up from and relax.

These are just the words of my teacher. For my part I struggle to concentrate enough to listen to more than 10 minutes of a talk at a time. And I struggle to daily meditate.

I work on too tight and too loose now.

Supertramp

I am not too booked up on zen buddhism, but yes you obviously need some senses to become enlightened or practice buddhism, but you must not attach to them. The buddha stated one should neither strive or find a taste delicious, or find it disgusting. The same for ever sense, the middle way. You should see everything as empty, as an illusion. A nun I was listening to once said that with dependent origination, she started but saying to herself everyday that life is a dream, an illusion. Nothing is at it seems

Surely you can taste something and find it delicious; see something and find it beautiful; without attaching to it?

Lostie

Jeff - thanks for the replies.

ThailandTom

Yes well I suppose you can, but I was taking it directly from the suttas. The buddha probably meant that you can find something delicious, but not attach to it. Then again, I was not around 2,500 years ago and I am no the buddha.

I myself always stop to smell certain flowers, or make an effort to watch the sun rise over the ocean, but I am not exactly attached to them.

ThailandTom

Yes well I suppose you can, but I was taking it directly from the suttas. The buddha probably meant that you can find something delicious, but not attach to it. Then again, I was not around 2,500 years ago and I am no the buddha.

I myself always stop to smell certain flowers, or make an effort to watch the sun rise over the ocean, but I am not exactly attached to them.

Roger

Except for the profound impossible-to-communiate non-human-realm experience of enlightenment everything we experience is what we humans have invented. They are all components of various SYSTEMS OF BELIEF.

If ten of us get together and decide we have antlers: there's no effective denying the "truth" of our statements by others.

Everything that is true for humans is by an act of consensus.

Find a consensus which fits you, hang out with them, do not to be destructive toward others when incorporating your "truth," and you'll be fine.

Me personally, I like western systems of belief for their science and technology which has a huge potential to alleviate suffering. I like eastern systems of belief for their repeated overt emphasis on loving kindness.

IM_H_O of course.

federica

Very little. They're just personal opinionated perceptions and as such, subject to change.

But is having an opinion a bad thing?

No, I never said or implied it was, either....

Surely people around you appreciate you having an opinion, as do we here on this messageboard. How do you know you're not gonna put too little stock into your perceptions and become someone without any opinions?

I'll always have perceptions and opinions, I just don't really mind whether people agree with them or not, that's their choice.
And while I very rarely flit and change my mind, with all the fickle regularity of a woman with waaaaaay too many shoes(!) I can and do change my opinions over time, at times....

Not on everything, but occasionally, I do.
So, while I hold views and opinions, they're "important" to me, because they are my truth at the time, and that's fine.
But I'm fully cognisant of the fact that in time, there is a possibility they could change.
And that's fine too.

taiyaki

The only thing that is true is what is in front of you right now.

Jeffrey

awareness has no boundaries or dimensions

Sabre

I'd rather call it reality. For all kinds of people claim 'the truth', but that word can be interpreted in multiple ways. Because when something is true, it implies that something else is false.. which is not the way I prefer to call it.

There are clouds in the air, there are fishes in the oceans, there is a PC I'm typing on right now. This is all real, it's quite obvious. Saying there are no clouds and they are just perception, is a strange thing to say. Everybody sees them, they are there. Everything you experience is real. How can something not be real? Thoughts are real, everything is real. Whatever you perceive, it is real. If it wasn't real, it wouldn't exist and so it wouldn't be experienced.

But you can only see what perception itself really is when you rise above it in your meditation. When there is only awareness left, then you know something is real instead of just thinking something is real. When you KNOW it in your heart instead of in thoughts. That's the big difference. Thinking about this kind of stuff certainly helps a lot, but there is the feeling inside your heart and that should be your main guide.

Metta,
Sabre :vimp:

Theswingisyellow

My dog barking is truth
The blue sky is truth
My depression is truth
My joy is truth
My yellow pencil is truth
Truth is simply that which is, without your concepts being layer upon it.
This is my understanding.
With metta,
Todd

ThailandTom

Is the sky blue.... What is blue, how do you know that blue appears the same to you as it does to me? It is a mere perception, an illusion. There is a reality and everything exists, but we merely perceive it in a way that is not true to form.

Theswingisyellow

Is the sky blue.... What is blue, how do you know that blue appears the same to you as it does to me? It is a mere perception, an illusion. There is a reality and everything exists, but we merely perceive it in a way that is not true to form.

When I wrote that the sky was blue, your sky may have been grey or cloudy and that would have been truth too. I simply conveyed what was in front of me, how could it be untrue. What is in front of you right now? Is this not true? I don't see how bare attention to what is could be false. It's our think and concepts that are distorted and are miles away from the truth.
With metta,
Todd

ShiftPlusOne

Don't mistake 'illusion' to mean not real. When our perception of something is different to what it actually is, that's an illusion. When you overuse that definition, you end up dismissing everything as 'illusion' as if that makes it any less important. Yes, everything is an illusion to a varying degree. I don't know if my blue is the same as your blue, in fact I am a little colour blind, so it's probably different. However we can both agree on the frequency which defines blue. The frequency of light is real, how we perceive it is an illusion, however we are both talking about the same thing.

So yeah, if you want to get technical you can say that there is no sky and there is no blue, but there is dispersion of light waves which results in certain frequencies reaching our eyes and creating the effect which we perceive. However, it's much easier to say "the sky is blue" and that's just as accurate.

/rant

(Sorry, the word 'illusion' is thrown around so much, that it's basically meaningless, so I had to rant about it for a while.)

Theswingisyellow

"There is a reality and everything exists"
One could call that relative truth. Ultimate truth is likened to the concept of emptiness. Both are so. But if my hand is cut off,(relative truth; I lost my hand, extreme pain, blood loss)I can't sit there and say its just all emptiness. Though my concept/grasp of ultimate truth may help me to better deal (at least psychologically)with the current relative truth, the loss of my limb.
With metta,
Todd

Jeffrey

So you meditate and its emptiness and then your hand gets cut off and relative truth appears... The two truths has some holes in it, but held lightly its good.

Theswingisyellow

Emptiness and relative truth are always there, for me it's not being attached to either nor running to either extreme. I have a form but what could be said to be me?
With metta,
Todd

Jeffrey

Thats what I'm talking about! Holding it lightly...

Theswingisyellow

:thumbsup: