3rd vs. 4th Foundation of Mindfulness

buddhajunkie

I'm having some difficulty understanding the distinctions between the 3rd and the 4th foundations of mindfulness.

I've seen the 3rd relate to "consciousness" or "mindstates," and the 4th relate to "dhammas" or "mental objects."

There seems to be a good deal of overlap between the two foundations. For example, your consciousness can be colored by the mindstate of ill will, a topic of the 3rd foundation. However, ill will is also a hindrance, a topic of the 4th foundation.

What exactly is the difference in nuance between the 3rd and 4th in cases such as this?

Also, any suggest material related to this would be much appreciated. My currect related reading/listening is Gunaratana, Flickstein and Fronsdal.


thanks!

DhammaDhatu

hi

i have suggested often the Buddha himself did not speak the Satipatthana Sutta

the salient characteristic of the Buddha's teachings is they are a sequential expression of the path

where as the Satipatthana Sutta is just a listed of disconnected dhammas, which are not listed as a sequential expression of the path

for example, the five hindrances, which are obstacles to meditation, are included in the 4th Satipatthana

i would suggest the Satipatthana Sutta is a compilation of various teachings given by the Buddha, compiled after the Buddha passed away

the essence of Satipatthana is found in the Anapanasati Sutta, where the Buddha states perfecting Anapanasati will perfect the Satipatthana

in the Anapanasati Sutta, the 4th satipatthana is about experiencing impermanence (unsatisfactoriness & not-self) and Nibbana

best wishes

DD

DhammaDhatu

also, although i have not investigated the Pali in detail, the 4th satipatthana is called Dhammānupassanā

The word "dhamma" here need not be translated "mental qualities"

In my opinion, the word "Dhamma" here means all experienceable "phenomena" or "things"

For example, the five aggregates are included in Dhammānupassanā but the body aggregate is not a "mental quality" however it is a "phenomena" or "thing"

Unfortunately, the few translators we have adhere to the Commentary tradition

An excellent example of their confusion is comparing the Satipatthana Sutta with the Mula Sutta (here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.058.than.html)

In the Mula Sutta, the word "dhamma" is translated as "phenomena" where is should be translated as "mental qualities"

In the Satipatthana Sutta, the opposite occurs. The word "dhamma" is translated as "mental qualities" where is should be translated as "phenomena"

all the best

DD

DhammaDhatu

SATIPATTHANA IS ANAPANASATI

Another common problem is that some people cling to and are stuck on the word satipatthana (foundations of mindfulness) far too much. Some go so far as to think that Anapanasati has nothing to do with the four foundations of mindfulness. Some even reject Anapanasati out of hand. In some places they really hang onto the word "satipatthana." They cling to the satipatthana of the Digha-nikaya (Long Discourses) which is not anything more than a long list of names, a lengthy catalogue of sets of dhammas. Although there are whole bunches of dhammas, no way of practice is given or explained there. This is what is generally taken to be satipatthana. Then it is adjusted and rearranged into these and those practices, which become new systems that are called satipatthana practices or meditation.*

*[Whether these practices are correct and useful, or not, is not an issue here. (ET)]

Then, the followers of such techniques deny, or even despise, the Anapanasati approach, asserting that it is not satipatthana. In truth, Anapanasati is the heart of satipatthana, the heart of all four foundations of mindfulness. The 16 Steps is a straight-forward and clear practice, not just a list of names or dhammas like in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha-nikaya#22**). Therefore, let us not fall into the misunderstanding that Anapanasati is not satipatthana, otherwise we might lose interest in it thinking that it is wrong. Unfortunately, this misunderstanding is common. Let us reiterate that Anapanasati is the heart of all four satipatthana in a form that can be readily practiced.

**[The Satipatthana Sutta (Majjhima-nikaya #10) follows the same pattern as the Maha but is less detailed and extensive. (ET)]

We have taken time to consider the words "satipatthana" and "Anapanasati" for the sake of ending any misunderstandings that might lead to a narrow-minded lack of consideration for what others are practicing. So please understand correctly that whether we call it satipatthana or Anapanasati there are only four matters of importance: kaya, vedana, citta, and Dhamma. However, in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta there's no explanation of how to practice these four things. It gives only the names of dhammas and expands upon them. For example, the matter of kaya (body) is spread out over corpse meditations, sati-sampajanna in daily activities, the postures, and others more than can be remembered. It merely catalogues groups of dhammas under the four areas of study.

The Anapanasati Sutta, on the other hand, shows how to practice the four foundations in a systematic progression that ends with emancipation from all dukkha. The sixteen steps work through the four foundations, each one developing upon the previous, and supporting the next. Practice all sixteen steps fully and the heart of the satipatthana arises perfectly. In short, the Satipatthana Suttas are only lists of names. The Anapanasati Sutta clearly shows how to practice the four foundations without anything extra or surplus. It does not mention unrelated matters.

Buddhadasa Indapanno

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing.htm

DairyLama

I've seen the 3rd relate to "consciousness" or "mindstates," and the 4th relate to "dhammas" or "mental objects."

In simple terms the third foundation of mindfulness refers to ones' state of mind ( the background "quality" of mind ), while the fourth foundation refers to mental objects, ie the current "content" of the mind, thoughts, feelings etc.

Though as DD has observed it isn't quite as straightforward as this because different suttas explain things in slightly different ways.

P

DairyLama

In my opinion, the word "Dhamma" here means all experienceable "phenomena" or "things"

Would it help to distinguish between Dhamma ( Buddha's teachings ) and dhamma ( phenomena? Also is it the case that dhamma = mental objects because everything is experienced in the mind?

P

DairyLama

where as the Satipatthana Sutta is just a listed of disconnected dhammas, which are not listed as a sequential expression of the path

That's the impression I have of it - a loose collection of stuff bundled up together.

P

buddhajunkie

Interesting stuff, and something I will be thinking about.


By the way, I find this aspect of Buddhism very interesting, regarding the construction of the Pali Cannon and differences in translations. Any reading/link recommendations?

Jason

What exactly is the difference in nuance between the 3rd and 4th in cases such as this?

Also, any suggest material related to this would be much appreciated. My currect related reading/listening is Gunaratana, Flickstein and Fronsdal.

You might find this and this useful. You may also find Thanissaro's three talks on Ajahn Lee's Frames of Reference helpful, as well.

DairyLama

By the way, I find this aspect of Buddhism very interesting, regarding the construction of the Pali Cannon and differences in translations. Any reading/link recommendations?

This is a very useful resource: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html

P

buddhajunkie

Thanks guys for the links, still reading through them sporadically.


Interesting note: I was reading the Buddhadasa link above and he referred to the 4th foundation as "Dhamma", with a capital "D", as opposed to "dhamma" which he mentioned in italics as well as in ordinary font.

Thus, his interpretation seems to be that in the 4th foundation, you are mindful of how your experience fits into the Buddha's teaching, rather than just applying bare awareness to body, feelings and mind.

This makes A LOT of sense to me, however, this doesn't seem to be a common interpretation....

DhammaDhatu

hi

Without having a look, I would imagine Dhamma (with a big "D"), means "The Truth", namely, The Three Characteristics and The Four Noble Truths. By the Four Noble Truths, in respect to the fourth sathipattana, I am referring to seeing the fading away of attachment; seeing when attachment ends, disturbance ends & peace (Nibbana) comes.

Buddhadasa advises in the beginning of the book (and probably in the glossary) that the word dhamma has different meanings, such as things (nature), truth (law of nature), practise or practices (duty according to the law of nature) and fruition (the result of doing duty according to the law of nature).

So Dhamma with a capital "D" would not be mere 'things' or 'practices'. It is the big enlightenment, that is, The Truth.

(I have not read this book in many many years but it is the first dhamma book i ever read).

Kind regards

DairyLama

Interesting note: I was reading the Buddhadasa link above and he referred to the 4th foundation as "Dhamma", with a capital "D", as opposed to "dhamma" which he mentioned in italics as well as in ordinary font.

Thus, his interpretation seems to be that in the 4th foundation, you are mindful of how your experience fits into the Buddha's teaching, rather than just applying bare awareness to body, feelings and mind.

This makes A LOT of sense to me, however, this doesn't seem to be a common interpretation....

I'm not sure that Buddhadasa makes it completely clear but there's a distinction between the 4th foundation of mindfulness where "dhamma" ( mind-objects ) seems most appropriate, and the 4th tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta which is concerned with insight / vipassana and where "Dhamma" seems most appropriate.

P

buddhajunkie

there's a distinction between the 4th foundation of mindfulness where "dhamma" ( mind-objects ) seems most appropriate, and the 4th tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta which is concerned with insight / vipassana and where "Dhamma" seems most appropriate.

P

Which section of which sutta are you referring to regarding the 4th foundation using "dhamma"? The Satipatthana/Mahasatipatthana sutta?

DairyLama

there's a distinction between the 4th foundation of mindfulness where "dhamma" ( mind-objects ) seems most appropriate, and the 4th tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta which is concerned with insight / vipassana and where "Dhamma" seems most appropriate.

P

Which section of which sutta are you referring to regarding the 4th foundation using "dhamma"? The Satipatthana/Mahasatipatthana sutta?

Yes, primarily the Satipatthana sutta. In the Anapanasati sutta the 4 tetrads of mindfulness with breathing are said to "fulfill" the four foundations of mindfulness ( as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ).
In other words the 4 tetrads of mindfulness with breathing ( Anapanasati Sutta )are distinct from but related to the four foundations of mindfulness ( Satipatthana Sutta ).
I'd recommend spending some time on both these suttas, they're both on Access to Insight.

P

buddhajunkie

thanks for the infos, Dhamma Dhatu, porpoise and Jason!


One last question that I don't want to start a new thread over:

What's the distinction between perception and consciousness in the 5 aggregates?

Jason

One last question that I don't want to start a new thread over:

What's the distinction between perception and consciousness in the 5 aggregates?

Perception (sanna) is what labels or identifies objects, whereas consciousness (vinnana) is simply the bare awareness of sensory input. While similar, perception or recollection is the more active of the two, and intimately tied with memory.