Ajahn Brahm's videos/Reincarnation

Epicurus

Okay lately I've been hooked on his videos. Now here's a guy who knows how to talk and explain, and someone you can actually relate to.

I've watched a lot of his videos. The other day I was going to watch the reincarnation one. But I hesitated. It's rare for me to agree so much with what someone else says (REALLY rare) and I don't believe in reincarnation so I stopped myself from actually watching lol...less I was disappointed.

Today I took the plunge though, and found myself agreeing in part with what a guy on youtube had to say about it :

"On Ajahn Brahm. I was really enjoying your videos. You make Buddhism seem like a practical science of liberation. There are even Buddhist teachings against superstitions.

But then you go through so much nonsense in this lecture on reincarnation. I am going to approach Buddhism from the perspective that it works even if you don't believe in monkey souls flying in to the wombs of pregnant women.

I'm sad to say, but this lowers the impact the rest of your videos will have on me."

Now, this is a recurrent issue on these forums but I really need to ask about it because it just doesn't seem to be inline with EVERYTHING ELSE in buddhism. What is there to reincarnate exactly? What happens at a physical level exactly, in reincarnation?

Can someone explain it to me. I thought buddhism didn't believe in the soul and that it didn't go against the laws of physics. Where is the 4 Noble Truths' (that talks about suffering) equivalent to reincarnation? Where is the logic in any of it?

Mr_Serenity

Ajahn Brahm is my favorite Buddhist speaker. I go to him before any other Buddhist monk, and I do trust his wisdom. No one is perfect, but compared to all the Buddhist speakers I've heard he's my favorite. So you know you can always talk about logic, but when someone as wise as Ajahn Brahm says something that you disagree with, there is always a possibility that you could be wrong. Possibility that he could be wrong too.

But the point is rather than something being "logical" the ego is responsible for what you deem as "logical". The more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know. Too much ego limits your learning of what is most likely rather than what is logical.

DhammaDhatu

His Holiness Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara, the Supreme Patriarch of Thailand

His Holiness' view on Heaven and Hell
... His Holiness’ two books on heaven and hell are truly analytical view on the subject from a Buddhist point of view. As we are so familiar, in religious sphere, the concept of heaven and hell is a very prominent belief. In many cases, it becomes the goal of religious practice itself. On this very subject, His Holiness critically analyses that the very concept and belief of heaven and hell in Buddhism is a cultural influence of indigenous culture and belief. He states: (I quote) ‘the subject of cosmology appeared in Buddhism is clearly can be seen that it is not ‘Buddhist teaching’ at all but an ancient geography. The concept and belief about it was included in Buddhist Canon merely because of strong influence of popular belief of the time. Later Commentaries further explain about heaven and hell in a greater detail distant itself from the original teaching of the Buddha. If Buddhism teaches such belief on heaven and hell it would not be Buddhism at all but an ancient geography. Buddha wouldn’t be the Buddha who delivered the Noble Truth and ‘timeless’ message for mankind.’ (p. 1) (end of the quote) He then shows in his teaching that the concept of heaven and hell in Buddhism are in fact symbolic, representing the quality of mind and spirituality instead. One can be in heaven and hell in this very earth and life. No need to wait until one dies...*

* Copied from Sunday Dhamma Talk
of 28th September 2008
by Ven. Dr. Anil Sakya.
Read the full article here.

http://www.sangharaja.org/en_main.asp

DhammaDhatu

What is there to reincarnate exactly? What happens at a physical level exactly, in reincarnation?

Can someone explain it to me. I thought buddhism didn't believe in the soul and that it didn't go against the laws of physics. Where is the 4 Noble Truths' (that talks about suffering) equivalent to reincarnation? Where is the logic in any of it?

hi Epicurus

you obviously are not a fan of my posts but i will not hold that against you

there is not a 4 Noble Truths equivalent to reincarnation

the 4 Noble Truths is the unique teaching of all Buddhas for freedom from suffering

where as reincarnation is a pre-Buddhist belief, which the Buddha taught to ordinary people who generally already believed in it as part of their Brahministic beliefs

it is important to understand the teachings on emptiness & not-self are not suitable for all people

in the scriptures, the Buddha taught literal reincarnation, in that a "person" is reborn

in Buddhism, there are two levels of teaching: (1) moral level, about self and (2) supramundane level, about emptiness or not-self

later day Buddhists started to mix these together but, when the Buddha was alive, they were kept distinctly seperate

no need to cause yourself the grief of a Westerner about what appears to be a contradiction

in Asia, this is fully understood: mundane dhamma for some, transcendent dhamma for others

all the best

DD

Epicurus

MrSerenity: Why is then the rest of buddhism so dependent on logic? The thing about logic is that it neatly applies to a world based on (for lack of a better word) rules. Those rules are the basis of the four noble truths and everything else.

As far as being wrong or right...I remain agnostic about reincarnation. I don't believe in it, not because I believe it doesn't happen, but because I don't know. Not to mention it's not something that ever bothered me...what happens after death.

But I must say, just like Ajahn Brahm suggested, that this time my mind went exactly to how my life values could be different if I did believe it was true. I'd certainly cut myself some slack more often and be more open to different kinds of experiences, paradoxically.

I like the guy, but I do not trust the guy. Trust is not the point. Faith is not the point. It's never been for me. And that's what drew me to buddhism in the first place. And as much as people say it's not that important an issue...I just realized I might care more about it than I ever thought. Logic might not be the best word, because it's loaded. But critique... that's something I'll never be able to throw away.

If I have no self then what does the other body have in common with me. Is it even accurate to say one "reincarnates", when I'm not aware of any of my past lifes?

Cloud

Don't worry about whether something you can't prove is true or not, worry about why you're worrying about it!

Epicurus

you obviously are not a fan of my posts but i will not hold that against you

I'm not?

there is not a 4 Noble Truths equivalent to reincarnation

the 4 Noble Truths is the unique teaching of all Buddhas for freedom from suffering

where as reincarnation is a pre-Buddhist belief, which the Buddha taught to ordinary people who generally already believed in it as part of their Brahministic beliefs

it is important to understand the teachings on emptiness & not-self are not suitable for all people

in the scriptures, the Buddha taught literal reincarnation, in that a "person" is reborn

in Buddhism, there are two levels of teaching: (1) moral level, about self and (2) supramundane level, about emptiness or not-self

later day Buddhists started to mix these together but, when the Buddha was alive, they were kept distinctly seperate

no need to cause yourself the grief of a Westerner about what appears to be a contradiction

in Asia, this is fully understood: mundane dhamma for some, transcendent dhamma for others

all the best

DD

Well, I'm not a Westerner so much as person in search of freedom from suffering. And transcendental dhamma like you put it, might very well make the whole search much easier (although I'm pretty happy with my current "stage" of wisdom). So I think it's an essential part of the whole middle way path.

If there is a contradiction and it's just for some people, then there must be a way to solve the problem.

Epicurus

Don't worry about whether something you can't prove is true or not, worry about why you're worrying about it!

Well, to be frank, I'm not too worried. But the simple fact you can't "prove" this, when you can "prove" everything else makes me question the commitment to reality of buddhism. And I gotta say the possibility of being convinced is very appealing to me in a way.

DhammaDhatu

And transcendental dhamma like you put it, might very well make the whole search much easier

If there is a contradiction and it's just for some people, then there must be a way to solve the problem.

there is a way to solve the problem, which is to forget about it

all the best

Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves.

Epicurus

^Meaning what exactly? I DO want to grasp.

And forgetting doesn't solve anything really. Besides, that's not the point really. Ajahn Brahm made it sound so obvious and other people apparently believe in it, and I'd just like to know why. Because they just have faith?

Is faith required?

Dakini

Good grief, here we go again. :rolleyes: The way it works in Mahayana, since you asked, is that there's not a soul (they say), but consciousness along with karma transfers from one sentient being to another (between the death of one and the birth of another being). There's a good DVD: "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", made by a Japanese film crew with live footage from Tibet and some Japanese animation, to illustrate the bardo stage. It's great, might answer some questions for you. At least, after viewing it, you can decide if it makes sense, or if you want to stick to logic. Nothing wrong with that, either.

^Meaning what exactly? I Ajahn Brahm made it sound so obvious and other people apparently believe in it, and I'd just like to know why. Because they just have faith?

Is faith required?

Yeah, most of them because they have faith. A few, because they or people they know have had past life recall events. Some Buddhist traditions talk about faith; at the very least, faith in the fact that following the dharma will make you a happier person and get you closer to Enlightenment. That's how I've heard faith discussed. Some people say their lama required a belief in rebirth. Others say their lama didn't require it. Some traditions apparently don't have a rebirth belief. So...whatever works for you. Keeping an open mind never hurts.

DhammaDhatu

If we are interested in ending suffering, it is best to avoid getting emotionally involved with teachers such as Ajahn Brahm

Ajahn Brahm is a Bodhisatva. His role, say like Jesus, is to bring happiness to people who cannot bring happiness to themselves.

If you wish to end your own suffering, then you must do the work yourself rather than get hooked on professional entertainers such as Ajahn Brahm or The Dalai Lama

By all means, pick & choose any wise things Ajahn Brahm has to say because he has alot of wisdom to share.

But those who gain enlightenment do so using their own mind and own energy.

Of when "transmission" occurs, it is of a disease.

Sorry to sound so harsh.

With metta

DhammaDhatu

Epicurus

Yeah, the beauty in Buddhism for me is that you don't need faith that it will make you a happier person because it's something that you can just test for yourself and the practices and theory make sense. I'll always keep an open mind but I'll just always keep something else in mind ....that all these people, monks, Buddha, or whatever, are just human.

I can even intellectually understand anatta in a sense. This is just too vague. No thorough explanations.

Dhattu : Lol, no worries. I do all the work for myself, thinking included. But Brahm said himself..that he is there just to show the path and what we have to know to see for ourselves. I see a path for everything else. Just no reincarnation.

Jason

Always a fun topic. You can read some of my thoughts about it here if you're interested.

DhammaDhatu

Buddhism was much different when I started. Back then, the gurus sought to knock this reincarnation stuff out of your head. But, now, as it is so mainstream, the gurus want to fill your head full of it. :-/

DhammaDhatu

The Dalai Lama speaks relevantly at @ 10:55 to 12:30

ThailandTom

I have been viewing his talks for a year now, before he wen on his 'rains retreat' in November. He has been slammed before for making buddhism into something it's not, that he changes it, but he merely uses the word of the buddha in a modern sense and puts his talks into a way most people can relate to.

He is obviously a very wise person, a very peaceful and happy person. He was taught as a young monk by the great ajahn chah (I seem to be unknowingly following his footsteps as I am from england, moved to the thailand and am edging closer to becoming a monk here).

Somebody spoke of monkey souls entering a mothers womb, that is reincarnation, not rebirth. Buddhists believe in rebirth if i am not wrong, reincarnation is a hindu belief... And yes there is no soul in buddhism, but I have heard and read that there is a stream of consciousness, a continuum.

I personally believe in rebirth, I didn't use to about a year ago but came around to the concept. There was a talk on the same site as ajahn brams WA society by a different monk, and he was western and baffled to why lay western buddhists are so stubborn to dismiss this teaching as it is a corner stone to the dharma

Supertramp

Ajahn Brahm has on many occasions also mentioned the Kalama Sutta (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/kalama1.htm). I find everybody can teach you something, in the case of Ajahn Brahm he can teach you alot. But recognising people can teach you something, no matter how much it is, doesn't mean you have to believe everything they say as fact. I use his teachings (and all other teachings) as guidelines to find the real truth about things.

ThailandTom

I second that, the buddha himself actually said you should not take my word for a given matter, find out for yourself. But with rebirth we cannot actually do that, we either believe or not.

Supertramp

In such cases I just don't trouble myself with thinking about it. I find it irrelevant, however Buddhist or not-Buddhist that may be. I also refuse to classify myself as a Buddhist or as a not-Buddhist.

Tristram30

I came across Brahm through the Youtube video posted by DD. I wasn't very impressed with him at all but then I checked out some of his other talks and they are much, much better. I suspect the reincarnation talk was given to beginners and it's totally taken out of context in the Youtube clip.

If you don't beleive in rebirth or reincarnation then anybody giving that talk would come across as mad

The author of DD's video is clearly incendiary but I had to laugh at "Ajahn Brahm, or as he is otherwise known, Peter Betts"! Brilliant!

ThailandTom

Brahm is one of the most realistic and modernistic, straight talking no bullshit monks going

GuyC

Hi All,

I believe that you don't have to wait until you die to find out about rebirth. There are two methods to learn about rebirth: external and internal.

The external method is to look at the evidence of NDE's and anecdotal evidence where people remember the details of their alleged past-lives. In some cases people can remember the appearance of villages they had never seen in this lifetime, they remembered who the local residents were, where their house was and what it looked like, what their name was and in some cases the dates of birth and death. If you are interested in the subject there are a few books (see: Ian Stevenson) and documentaries, just have a look on google and youtube.

The internal method is usually through either meditation or hypnosis. Though occasionally people, especially children, may have spontaneous past life memories. Ajahn Brahm recommends that you get to at least nimitta (aka access concentration) stage before attempting to recall past lives. His method is simply to ask yourself, after deep meditation, "what is my earliest memory?" and from then "further please" and so on.

Metta,

Guy

GuyC

Hi Tom,

I have been viewing his talks for a year now, before he wen on his 'rains retreat' in November. He has been slammed before for making buddhism into something it's not, that he changes it, but he merely uses the word of the buddha in a modern sense and puts his talks into a way most people can relate to.

In my opinion, from what I have read of the Suttas, he appears to be someone who teaches in line with traditional Buddhism.

Metta,

Guy

GuyC

If you wish to end your own suffering, then you must do the work yourself rather than get hooked on professional entertainers such as Ajahn Brahm or The Dalai Lama

Professional entertainers??

fivebells

Hi, Dhatu. It surprises me that you've linked to this video. While I roughly agree with his conclusions, it is largely a string of ignorant ad hominems and argument-by-ridicule, and really doesn't illuminate the question. I love his cogent rebuttal around 7m10s: "Bullshit!" Not that I disagree, but it's not likely to lead to respectful conversation.

B5C

I am a big fan of Ajahn Brahm also. I watching his videos every week. If I miss them I do get the pod casts as well.

MindGate

Perhaps consciousness is, in fact, eternal. Though, its forever changing, yet-shapeless, without ego and indefinite. It has no end and no beginning. Like all things in nature, nothing is created or destroyed, but rather recycled. Perhaps consciousness is like that. Just a thought.

For a long time, I did not believe in rebirth, nor reject the idea. I'm still on the fence about it.

Cloud

The Buddha would smack you upside the head MindGate. He did when one of his monks said something like that. Something about consciousness being conditioned like everything else. Let not such thoughts enter your head.

Read more of the following at http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm :

Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

"Sati, what is that consciousness?"

"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."

"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

Bolded emphasis is mine. It seems to cling to such a view is no good at all!

Dazzle

Hi Cloud, I wonder if you're refering to MN 38 ?

http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm

OOPS you've added an extra bit after 'enter your head' -and we must have posted at the same time lol !

Cloud

That's the link I gave Dazzle! The exact same link. Right before the quote above. So yes.

Yeah I just had the first paragraph, but thought that I could find the sutra so I put the link and relevant text when I edited it. Funny we came up with the same link, there were a few (wanted one that was formatted correctly, not all run-on like most, maybe that's why).

DairyLama

Buddhism was much different when I started. Back then, the gurus sought to knock this reincarnation stuff out of your head. But, now, as it is so mainstream, the gurus want to fill your head full of it. :-/

I've had exaxtly the opposite experience. It seems very fashionable these days to scoff at the idea of post-mortem rebirth.

P

DairyLama

If we are interested in ending suffering, it is best to avoid getting emotionally involved with teachers such as Ajahn Brahm

We ALL get emotionally involved with one teacher or another.

P

MindGate

So, then is concious is dependantly created, there is nothing that would go from one life to another, correct?

Victorious

So, then is concious is dependantly created, there is nothing that would go from one life to another, correct?

Wrong. Consiousness needs a base (of sense doors) but there is nothing said that that base must be material. Buddhism teaches about finematerial and immaterial bodies as well.

Victorious

Buddhism was much different when I started. Back then, the gurus sought to knock this reincarnation stuff out of your head. But, now, as it is so mainstream, the gurus want to fill your head full of it. :-/

I've had exaxtly the opposite experience. It seems very fashionable these days to scoff at the idea of post-mortem rebirth.

P

Yes I agree and would like to add it is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous than this Intelligent Design idea.

DhammaDhatu

We ALL get emotionally involved with one teacher or another.

No, we all do not.

Getting involved in seeing the Dhamma with our own mind & being intimately in touch with our own mind is not the same as getting emotionally involved with the metta being suffused & transmitted by a love guru.

If we are interested in enlightenment & ending suffering, take great care with love gurus whose role is to feed the chooks.

All the best

:om:

DhammaDhatu

I've had exaxtly the opposite experience. It seems very fashionable these days to scoff at the idea of post-mortem rebirth.

Are you saying you have been studying & practising Buddhism for over 25 years and are still asking questions about the Four Noble Truths?



In my post, I was referring to Dhamma teachers. I implied in the 1970s and 1980s, often (not always), the Dhamma teachers sought to push Westerners away from rebirth and push them towards meditation & understanding their minds.

Please study the teachings of Brahm's guru Ajahn Chah and then tell us what % of those teachings are devoted to rebirth.

Thanks

All the best

Victorious

@Dhamma Dhatu
Very interesting DD I did not know that. I'll have to ask my father. Why did they do that and where? In Europe or America? My fathers teacher was German. I can not say rebirth was an big issue for discussion so I really do not know the details.

/Victor

DhammaDhatu

I am referring to Asian gurus.

Victorious

I am referring to Asian gurus.

Sorry in that case I do not know of any such. Asian Buddhist Gurus? Arent they all monks? Do you have names?

ThailandTom

I believe that consciousness cannot be created by physical matter, it is a continuum and the fabric of the universe. However, this is my opinion and to think so deeply into such topic unless you are enlightened will just baffle you. It is impossible for us to comprehend something that exists but was never created, there are so many questions, mysteries to the universe we simple cannot understand. So let them be and accept what is

Ajahn Brahm you leg-end