Hitler and Buddhism: Warning - Bad Language

DhammaDhatu

Roger

That's funny. Nice work (though you're right, the language isn't really fun).

I _DID_ like the one where hitler (small h) is mad about improvements made to his condo! I remember he didn't like the granite countertops; they were too yellow (or something). I like laughing at hitler!

MindGate

I CONQUERED THE ENTIRE WORLD, AND BUDDHA JUST SAT UNDER A FUCKING TREE!

Jeffrey

Buddha would have a chat with you about capitol letters or something hehehe!

yiming

So, you guys think it's fair to regard the Buddha as a saint and Hitler as a demon, or are they two faces on the same coin?

Talisman

Hitler had the potential for Buddhahood just like every other sentient being. His karma has no doubt given rise to a new consciousness in a woeful and terrible condition. Our hearts should go out to him.

Roger

Though I agree with Talisman above I have to think of guys like hitler as basically animals. Care for them, put them in cages like mad dogs (have compassion for the poor beasts, try to make them comfortable). They crossed the line and can never be trusted.

FWIW, sometimes I go thru this thought experiment. I imagine I, Roger, woke up in Saddam's shoes. You know what? I hate to admit this? I would be doing one of these two things:

1. I would do the "right thing" issue executive orders to try to change things and thus resign myself to being brutally killed by my own people in a few days.

-or-

2. within a week or so I would start killing people to stay alive.

I'm not sure I fully thought this out. What do you guys think?

That poor SOB Saddam got himself in so deeply and didn't have the brains nor wisdom NOR THE POSSIBILITY to change course. Not trying to sugarcoat anything. After all, even though we "hate" them for their atrocities they themselves ARE tragic figures.

Dakini

Does anyone really have a clear idea what Saddam was about? Here in the US we got a lot of propaganda (WMD), but it's hard to sift through that to find the truth. Since when is it ok to murder foreign heads of state? (A: since G.W. Bush. Well, overtly, that is.)

Roger

Took me half a day to realize my example above is ridiculous: thankfully there is no way for one person to wake up and take over the life of another (to occupy another person's shoes).

On thing I do know which separates "us" from him. He and his sons were (apparently) fervent watchers and particiants in the of the pornography of violence (or do I just believe this? I only read about it Uh Oh!) They enjoyed seeing people get..., well..., you know: all sorts of extreme horrible things.

I believe witnessing such events and obviously causing them is ruinous to an individual's personality. It's gotta create or indicate a serious personality disorder. Saddam was probably just like Ted Bundy, charming one minute and a sadist murderer the next.

hitler was also into it, so the historians say. He also loved children and animals.

NomaDBuddha

Hitler had the potential for Buddhahood just like every other sentient being. His karma has no doubt given rise to a new consciousness in a woeful and terrible condition. Our hearts should go out to him.

As I remember, Hitler had a (natural) talent for art, especially painting. Now going into war (WWI) can leave some serious mental injuries...

Roger

Hitler had the potential for Buddhahood just like every other sentient being. His karma has no doubt given rise to a new consciousness in a woeful and terrible condition. Our hearts should go out to him.

As I remember, Hitler had a (natural) talent for art, especially painting. Now going into war (WWI) can leave some serious mental injuries...

Seriously? I do feel sorry for the guy (also feel sorry for the 35 million soldiers and civilians who died in WWII because of him). I understand a little German and saw a film of him talking normally, casually, quietly; a very rare film apparently. For a second he's appearing like a fairly dignified refined calm gentleman. Yup. He could have been a simple enraged murderer of one or two people, instead he got millions. No big deal. I mean the SCALE is what's impressive but that's really all: people murder other people and are otherwise "nice" people. Amazing what the human brain can convince itself to do.

compassionate_warrior

On thing I do know which separates "us" from him. He and his sons were (apparently) fervent watchers and particiants in the of the pornography of violence (or do I just believe this? I only read about it Uh Oh!) It's gotta create or indicate a serious personality disorder.

I vaguely recall reading this about Uday and Qusay, Saddam's sons. Good point. Undoubtedly, watching that stuff desensitizes one to human suffering. oog.

Roger

Oh boy. Here we go. Sorry to mention this. However, it might save somebody some bad trouble. I will be very vague. My idiot (sorry) old "friends" sent me an email link of an execution. There was no way I was going to watch it. However it was very odd that I eventually clicked the link. I somehow decided to mute it (extremely glad I did). I watched it. Big mistake. It's FOREVER burned into my mind. Seriously. I'm so upset with myself that I somehow gave in and let curiosity take over. That horrific video will be with me for the rest of my life. NEVER watch something like that! I feel like it changed a part of my brain in a very small but noticeable way (speaking somewhat figuratively I guess).

compassionate_warrior

Yeah, I've learned you have to be really careful about the images you expose yourself to. They can burn themselves into your brain. So you clicked it by accident? Weird. Some "friend". :rolleyes:

Roger

So you clicked it by accident? Weird. Charming "friend". :rolleyes:

No accident. :banghead: I was bored I guess, deleting stuff and said,"What the heck?!" STUUUUUPID. The friends thing? He's my old girlfriend's younger brother who spent time in Iraq and saw lots of crummy stuff (literally the bad stuff). I guess they lost track of how disturbing things can be to the rest of us.

compassionate_warrior

Wow. Sounds like he could use some therapy. Seriously. Is he having any Post-Traumatic Stress symptoms?

Roger

Wow. Sounds like he could use some therapy. Seriously. Is he having any Post-Traumatic Stress symptoms?

I dunno. We emailed back and forth while he was there so he wouldn't feel lonely/disconnected from home. Nice guy. Lost touch. Still keep in touch now and then with my old GF, his sister. No bad news on him. :-/ Oh well... .

yiming

I'm not sure I fully thought this out. What do you guys think?

That poor SOB Saddam got himself in so deeply and didn't have the brains nor wisdom NOR THE POSSIBILITY to change course. Not trying to sugarcoat anything. After all, even though we "hate" them for their atrocities they themselves ARE tragic figures.

That's how you see it. But guys like Saddam or Hitler and I might include Emperor Qin and even Mao Zedong, they see us guys as dumbasses. Nothing personal. Has it occur to you that there are only few players in life, people who matter and are mentioned in history books. Next time you get into a tall building, go up 30 storeys or more and look down at the people moving along sidewalks and across streets. They look like ants, not you or me or people who counts as humans. This is why it is easy for guys like Saddam to order an expedient military or armed drone strikes or atomic attack that wipe out the expendable masses. Do you know that the sum of all human knowledge has been contributed by a handful while the rest of men have their mind stuffed in with that knowledge in school so they can work the cash registers, bag groceries, make shoes and all the way up to building space shuttles. Only a few count, like the 500 hundred richest people in Fortune magazine. The rest don't except for hauling massive blocks to build pyramids or giant dams. So, while we think they are tragic and throw shoes at them, they don't really care that much.

compassionate_warrior

The rest don't except for hauling massive blocks to build pyramids or giant dams.

It happens in democracies as well. How many hundreds of Chinese laborers died to build the US cross-continental railroads?

yiming

The rest don't except for hauling massive blocks to build pyramids or giant dams.

It happens in democracies as well. How many hundreds of Chinese laborers died to build the US cross-continental railroads?

Of course, it happens in democracies. Do you really think yours or my vote matter and there is such a thing as free will and choice? Democracy is a nice idea but the democratic process is something else - more like candy factory process that channel our votes like M&M's into packets for packing and shipping to the next President of the United States. At least, dictator types, like Gaddafi, are what you see are what you get.

mithril

Sweet^^

Though about the guy and other cruel political leaders - i feel no hate.

When caught up in it, they must have felt really helpless (since we all occasionally question our deeds, so imagine you are expected to complete a mass murder and not sure of yourself =/).

Also, great attachment is correlated with great suffering; therefore most of those people got quite their share of it (speaking of Hitler, he did die of suicide).

Dakini

Hitler chose suicide only as the enemy was nearing. He did it to avoid giving the enemy the satisfaction of killing him. And somehow, I can't imagine Hitler, Goebels, Mengele et al feeling helpless while being caught up in their dastardly deeds. But it's an interesting point you raise, mithril. Stalin, I think, suffered in that he became paranoid that those around him were plotting his murder (some were). So he had to live with that.

zombiegirl

i saw a documentary on hitler not too long ago that brought up several reasons that they think he had syphilis. apparently, in Mein Kampf, he wrote at length about syphilis being a jew disease, whatever that means. well, he also put a large amount of time and money into the developing a cure. they had the diary of his personal doctor that described treatments they gave him, which mirrored that of the syphilis treatments at the time.

it was rather interesting, really. i don't know if it's true or not, but i have to say, i would rather think that the did all those unspeakable acts as a result of mental problems caused by syphilis.

mithril

Hitler chose suicide only as the enemy was nearing. He did it to avoid giving the enemy the satisfaction of killing him.

If people were coming after you, the survival mode kicking in and all, would it really occur to you that, well, you should better kill yourself on the spot, since the enemy could get satisfaction in doing it?

Personally i don't believe so; i'm guessing possibly decades of suicidal ideation prior to the act. I'm not here to judge whether his suffering was sufficient to excuse his acts, but i believe it must have been pretty intense.

I wonder what would have happened if the guy would have a better understanding of Buddhism when he was young. It seems to me that he never had anyone to really instruct him on anything, and when his career "progressed" he just became more alone, stuck with his own ideas, with a nation looking for guidance when he had really wrong ideas himself.

Dakini

If people were coming after you, the survival mode kicking in and all, would it really occur to you that, well, you should better kill yourself on the spot, since the enemy could get satisfaction in doing it?

Yes, mithril. this is a very old battle strategy that spans cultures and centuries. It's the last act of personal power one can exert under such circumstances. Kind of sad.

mithril

Yes, mithril. this is a very old battle strategy that spans cultures and centuries. It's the last act of personal power one can exert under such circumstances. Kind of sad.

How do you know it was not a kind of apology to the world than, a hope of dying without being hated by his people, when everything he ever tried to do was wrong?

Roger

That's how you see it. But guys like Saddam or Hitler and I might include Emperor Qin and even Mao Zedong, they see us guys as dumbasses. Nothing personal. Has it occur to you that there are only few players in life, people who matter and are mentioned in history books. Next time you get into a tall building, go up 30 storeys or more and look down at the people moving along sidewalks and across streets. [edited]

Yes. I agree that those people (saddam, hitler etc) are jerks (I'm too lazy to get the adjectives right )

No. I don't agree the rest of us are unimportant.

I guess the point I want to make is if WE were the prison guards and Saddam and hitler were in the cells we were guarding, I like to think, after I got over my initial revulsion, I would start treating them with respect. Assuming they did not spit at me and act depraved.

Thanks for your good points, I can definitely see the validity of what you say. It's a sad situation. Humans getting power over other humans acting like..., well..., I want to add an obscenity in plural noun form here but won't.

:-/

zidangus

I wonder what would have happened if the guy would have a better understanding of Buddhism when he was young. It seems to me that he never had anyone to really instruct him on anything, and when his career "progressed" he just became more alone, stuck with his own ideas, with a nation looking for guidance when he had really wrong ideas himself.

I don't know about when he was young but it is clear that Hitler at least had some idea about Buddhism notably Shambhala, as there were Nazi Expeditions to Tibet in 1931–1 932 and 1934–1936.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/nazi_connection_shambhala_tibet.html

it is also clear however from his actions, that he certainly did not practice Buddhism.


Metta to all sentient beings

Roger

I don't know about when he was young but it is clear that Hitler at least had some idea about Buddhism notably Shambhala, as there were Nazi Expeditions to Tibet in 1931–1 932 and 1934–1936.

it is also clear however from his actions, that he certainly did not practice Buddhism.

Yes, and as most of us probably know, he sure did mess up a perfectly good ancient symbol!

Spaceless

So, you guys think it's fair to regard the Buddha as a saint and Hitler as a demon, or are they two faces on the same coin?

Buddha knows that you guys are Buddha whereas Hitler thought of himself as Buddha while others as servants/demons. It is same coin but different motivation :thumbsup:

Spock

In my opinion, dictators come about not only from their thirst for power but from circumstances surrounding them.

It's slightly like gene expression I.e. humans are partially a product of the environment they are exposed to.... some are exposed to very negative circumstances and their behaviour becomes negative as a result.
Leaders such as Cameron, Blair and bush are no different to Hitler in that regard and all came to power through a democratic process and they developed a power base that meant they were able to make poor decisions that impact negatively on millions.

sndymorn

The rest don't except for hauling massive blocks to build pyramids or giant dams.

It happens in democracies as well. How many hundreds of Chinese laborers died to build the US cross-continental railroads?

My Irish ancestors were first to the railways in the USA. they ,like the Chinese, contracted to come here. Of course, we left that for organized crime and the Kennedy dynasty was born. Now that is progress!

fivebells

...in Mein Kampf, he wrote at length about syphilis being a jew disease, whatever that means.

There are six references to syphilis in this translation, and none of them refer to it as a "Jew disease." The closest he comes is to implicitly refer to the moral havoc causing the rise of syphilis as the "Judaizing of our spiritual life."

The theory about him suffering from it sounds plausible, though.

Kundo

...in Mein Kampf, he wrote at length about syphilis being a jew disease, whatever that means.

There are six references to syphilis in this translation, and none of them refer to it as a "Jew disease." The closest he comes is to implicitly refer to the moral havoc causing the rise of syphilis as the "Judaizing of our spiritual life."

The theory about him suffering from it sounds plausible, though.

There is some talk of syphilis untreated does have mental illness as a side effect. Henry VIII died from syphilis and killed 4 of his 6 wives (he divorced his first one and the last one outlived him). However, upon looking for evidence to support the "madness" theory I can't find any so take it for what it's worth.

In metta,
Raven